This topic contains 15 replies, has 9 voices, and was last updated by 
David Hayward 1 year, 4 months ago.
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AnonymousThis is my first post here. Some of you know me from my blog. I’ve been lurking around TLS for a few weeks and enjoying getting to know you all and your precious (and often sad, powerful, and inspiring) stories.
Instead of introducing myself properly, I thought I’d just jump in with a post about narcissism in church leadership. I think a lot about narcissism in general and narcissism in church contexts in particular. Partly because I’m a therapist, but much more because I’ve been impacted profoundly by other people’s narcissism, from a parent to a former pastor to more than one ex-boyfriend. (Surely there are other therapists here, too? TLS is the kind of place we flock to like fruit flies to leftover wine).
Here’s what Narcissism looks like, according to the DSM (which, as you may have heard, has been revised, but it’s still basically this):
A pervasive pattern of grandiosity (in fantasy or behavior), need for admiration, and lack of empathy, beginning by early adulthood and present in a variety of contexts, as indicated by five (or more) of the following:
1. Has a grandiose sense of self-importance (e.g., exaggerates achievements and talents, expects to be recognized as superior without commensurate achievements).
2. Is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love.
3. Believes that he or she is “special” and unique and can only be understood by, or should associate with, other special or high- status people (or institutions).
4. Requires excessive admiration.
5. Has a sense of entitlement, i.e., unreasonable expectations of especially favorable treatment or automatic compliance with his or her expectations.
6. Is interpersonally exploitative, i.e., takes advantage of others to achieve his or her own ends.
7. Lacks empathy: is unwilling to recognize or identify with the feelings and needs of others.
8. Is often envious of others or believes that others are envious of him or her.
9. Shows arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitudes.
Sound familiar to anyone’s former pastors? Leadership of any kind is appealing to a person with narcissism, because it at least gives the illusion of power, status, specialness, and admiration from others. I often go back to a short quote from one of my textbooks on Narcissism (called Narcissism, A New Theory, by Neville Symington. Don’t read it, it’s super boring.):
“It is extremely important to be able to recognize people dominated by a narcissistic character structure. For one thing, such people, however gifted, cause considerable damage to the social structures to which they belong—to their families, their work organizations, clubs, societies.
Narcissism is not only present in individuals but it also contaminates organizations. One of the ways of differentiating a good-enough organization from one that is pathological is through its ability to exclude narcissistic characters from key posts.”
It astounds me that I’ve never heard of a church intentionally weeding out “narcissistic characters” when they choose their leadership. It seems like search committees (or whoever chooses church leadership) should have a basic education on this. You know, when they hire the person in charge of caring for human souls.
So, where have you seen narcissism in your past or present church life? How did you feel in the presence of that person/people?
(I had to write a paper in graduate school on my own narcissism in graduate school. It sucked. I wrote about it here).
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This topic was modified 2 months, 4 weeks ago by David Hayward.
But actually it is this kind of people that people WANT as their leaders.
AnonymousCompletely off topic, just saw your blog Christine and your entry of June 16th references Dan Allender as a prof. His book “The Wounded Heart” I’ve read about half of and really want to read “Bold Love”.
How was he as a prof?
AnonymousChristine – I read your blog about writing that paper on narcissim. Really good! Especially loved this part: “So what is narcissism?” she asked. After a moment of confused silence, she answered her own question, gently and quietly, “It’s shame. That’s all. It’s the places we’re scared others might see, so we cover them with something else.”
A couple years ago I started a local ministry with a close friend. At first things were okay, because I didn’t mind picking up her slack, but after a couple years I realized just how much she had used, manipulated, and controlled me (and others), so I left because I wasn’t willing to subject myself to that kind of treatment anymore. (Did I mention she and I were best friends?)
At the time I never could figure out WHY this person resorted to scheming, manipulating, and lying (even about things she didn’t need to lie about!), when she is a highly talented, intelligent, charismatic personality who didn’t need to do ANY of that stuff. She was also a total drama queen and had to be the center of attention. (Later on, after I had already left, she even embezzled some of the ministry’s funds!) I chalked her narcissism up to very poor self esteem and extreme insecurity, but I never thought about SHAME being part of the equation. Knowing that does make it a little easier to understand and have compassion for her (even though I will NOT re-establish a friendship with her. I can’t be around her and stay sane.)
Kathy-D – I’ve read both of those books by Dan Allendar. The Wounded Heart was very helpful – especially the chapter on contempt. That was a real eye-opener for me. Bold Love I thought was a bit unrealistic. I had very mixed feelings about some of the things he said regarding reconciliation between victims and sexual abusers. But it could have been because of where I was at in my recovery at that time.
I’m interested to hear what Christine has to say about having him for a prof too!
Anonymous@David, I think you’re right. So I guess the question is, what’s appealing about these kinds of leaders? Why are we drawn to them?
@Jo-White and @Kathy-d, Dan Allender is, as you might imagine, an incredibly kind man. I have some critique of his theology and his therapy practice— especially around issues of gender, but I can’t say anything against his character. He was the first person in my life to name my father as “narcissistic,” and he did it with such gentleness and compassion, even though after decades of counseling he would have every right to be jaded and cynical.
As a professor, he’s kind of like he is in his books without the benefit of an editor. He rambles, tells very long stories, says he has three points to make then gets lost in the second one, introduces a topic in a very tantalizing way but never returns to it. Being in his class could be frustrating.
@Jo-White, thank you for sharing the story of your ex-friend. How painful. I think you’re right on to have compassion on the insecurity and shame without subjecting yourself to relationship with her. Love the narcissist, hate the narcissism :).
I think they fit our ideas of what a leader should be because they have curried such ideas.
AnonymousI think they fit some groups’ ideal leader profile, because that group is full of people who want to feel like they are part of something bigger than themselves. They want to feel like they’re special, and called, and chosen, and significant. So to have someone at the helm who needs all those things for themselves, and has a rabid drive to get them…. well, I guess people feel like they could follow someone with that much drive. Because surely that person will take them somewhere special.
I think that healthy groups would do what Christine mentioned first, and weed out those candidates who are narcissistic. I think for healthy groups (just like in healthy interpersonal relationships), people see this behavior and turn away because it is distasteful.
@ChristineMarietta
Yes, that definitely describes pastors at the church where I came from and left after nine years. I was a slow learner. I knew almost immediately after meeting one of the pastors that the church brought in that he was in love with himself. But the others, it took a little while. They did a good job of saying “I love you” and faking it until they used me up.The cult I was in had a ‘Do not question the apostle’ standard of operation. So I think that in itself draws narcissist.
QUESTION: Do you think narcissist pastors draw (hire) other narcissist pastors into their church so that they, together, can use and abuse people with no conscious and there is no one to hold the others accountable?
Perhaps what search committees and HR departments need is a questionnaire that will help identify narcissistic personalities and how saturated they are with their own narcissism. The people in leadership who “suffer”, “persist” are “enmeshed” in this are dangerous because they believe their own story (even their own lies) and they can justify sacrificing others for their agenda. It is the opposite of my understanding of what Jesus was said to stand for. In “the world” it is probably called “good business” or even “just business”. The all too familiar, “this isn’t personal, it is just business” sort of thing.
I have been in churches and organizations that have been pulled apart by narcissism in leadership – Pastors who plead financial crisis, lay off staff and give themselves raises, lay leaders who undermine other ministries in their own church for fear of “loosing power”. I think it is made more painful by the fact that in business, the point is to succeed financially, in the church the assumption is that success should be measured by a different stick – and that may be where I get into trouble – I may not have understood the measure of success.
Those experiences were baffling to me as the decisions or the behavior in leadership seemed so incongruent with the stated “mission” of the church but congregations went along with it until the damage was already irreparable. In many instances it made me feel like I was the crazy one. I suspect that this is how you end up with hundreds of people drinking the kool aid. They follow and don’t question until it is too late.
I also think, that if we grow up in close proximity to narcissistic behavior, it is a challenge to see it as wrong – it is normal. I think many, many churches have grown up this way and have that style of leadership as their goal since that is what they have known. I suspect that many of us here, on TLS, are in the process of being free of that sort of history.
I have a tangential question too – not only are narcissists people we learn to distrust and realize we must be separate from, they are also, often, people we love, people we are related to. Is there a healthy way to be in relationship that may even encourage the person, mired in narcissism, to begin to be free? I have dumped churches and church leadership like bad compost when I ran into this in the past – but what about when it is your family?
AnonymousOh geez. I didn’t mean to disappear from my own topic. I thought I was getting all the comments emailed to me, but I missed yours @al, @wanderer, and @off-the-map. Sorry!
@wanderer, I like what you are describing, that the Narcissistic leader is chosen because the congregation *also* wants to feel special, chosen, significant. So then Narcissism actually exists in both the congregation and the leadership. Both parties are looking for mirroring in the other. Hmmmm. This stretches my brain in good ways. It makes it more complicated than “the narcissistic leader abuses the poor, victimized congregation.” It’s about unmet emotional needs in both parties, which is a much kinder way to see it. Thanks
@al, I don’t think you were a slow learner to not recognize your leaders’ self-centeredness. I think that’s why narcissism *works*, because it disguises itself as whatever other people need it to be. If people need to hear “I love you,” then that’s what the narcissistic person will say. Who can see through that at first? I sure can’t.
As for your question about whether people with narcissism hire the same type as themselves… One of the diagnostic criteria is that the narcissist feels that he “can only be understood by, or should associate with, other special or high-status people.” So, yes, they tend to congregate. But the problem is that each narcissistic person wants to occupy the throne. So, if they have different roles then they can co-exist a little easier, but there’s usually pretty intense conflict when you get two narcissists in a room.
@Off-the-map, Oh my gosh, Yes and Amen to your whole paragraph about how people who grow up around narcissism see it as normal. And how scary, and wonderful, to be shown a different option at places like TLS.
And I definitely feel the weight of your question about “What about when its your family?” Shit. I’m in that too, and I hate it. Every time I think I have a brilliant idea about how to handle it, I’m disappointed. Let me know if you figure anything out.
BUt, I do have some thoughts. I understand Narcissism as the antithesis of relationship. The Narcissist (which is shorthand for “person with narcissism”— the kinder label that I don’t want to keep typing out) can mimic relationship, empathy, compassion, but she can’t genuinely participate in those things. Because with narcissism, only one person (the narcissist) is allowed to be a Subject, everyone else is his or her Object. For example, I felt genuinely valued by my narcissistic dad when I performed well at the things he valued, but not when I expressed another genuine part of myself (like anger, or an interest in something he disliked). The Narcissist looks at another person and sees only himself… where he doesn’t see himself (because there’s disagreement or difference), he tries to destroy those things through mockery or abuse or intellect or theology or whatever his tools are. He cannot be in relationship because he cannot see another person as a Subject like himself.
So, that would mean that the way to be in relationship with narcissists is to 1) insist on your own subjecthood, and 2) invite them into relationship with it. Part 1 will probably sound like “I like,” “I don’t like,” “I will,” “I won’t,” “I think,” “I disagree,” etc. You validate your own subjecthood every time you use a phrase like this. My experience is that I had to use these phrases on myself for two years before I could say them to anyone else. Now it’s been 5 years since I started therapy, and I still rarely bring them to my Dad (Who is like my ground zero Narcissist)— because part of being a Subject is having the right to protect yourself from abuse or mockery or dismissiveness. But, I think whenever you validate your own right to yourself (your subjecthood), you invite the Narcissist to relate to YOU, rather than her objectified version of you. What’s most likely to happen is that she rejects that invitation, over and over, in harsh and demeaning ways.
My clinical supervisor told me once, “Recovery from Narcissism means plunging into grief.” A person becomes a narcissist because his or her true self was repeatedly rejected in childhood, so they had to develop a false one that could be loved in a way the true self wasn’t. So, recovering from narcissism means feeling the destitution of the unloved child, which is the what the narcissist has avoiding feeling for decades. Bottom line, it’s hard, and unlikely, to change a narcissist into a non-narcissist. But, I think modeling self-love and other-love (through compassion, empathy, and a tolerance of difference) is a good way to offer it.
That was a whole lot of jumbled thoughts that I don’t have time to edit. Thank you guys for engaging in my least-favorite favorite topic with me!
@ChristineMarietta So much to think about after knowing you have been used by a few narcissist. And your statement of:
“Recovery from Narcissism means plunging into grief.”
can also be said for the ones who have been steamrolled over BY narcissist. So I guess it affects everyone involved.I remember some years ago an assessment that many of our business leaders show significant signs of Sociopathy, and that there is a tendency to promote these people because they match the model that we want in charge of our business. We just don’t want to actually work with them. Having experienced such a person, I can concur. However, I think this is a related issue, and psychiatric problems are endemic in leadership.
As @David said earlier, the reason is that our models of leadership reflect these psychological profiles. I would suspect that one reason is that some of the great leaders have suffered from psychological problems, but have managed and controlled them. Those who have followed have not always been as capable of controlling their excesses.
I think the narcissism in church leaders is not helped by the fact that they are usually told that they are special, important, chosen by God because of the ridiculous thing called “Ordination”. Really, if you have any hint of narcissism, the theology of ordination will tell you that this is good and you are, actually, very special. So what do we expect?
A couple of issues here really make me itch… I am living with teenagers, whose narcissistic traits, I hope, are developmental – that profound lack of empathy, an inability to see another’s perspective, a tendency to grandiosity… most of which I can endure in hopes that they come out ok, and like the rest of us. The other part that makes me itch is thinking of narcissism on a sliding scale – an equal opportunity problem. I see in myself, a willingness to be whatever other’s need me to be to gain their confidence, their loyalty, their admiration. I see in my children the places where my neglect, or inability has caused a callus to develop in an attempt to shield themselves from shame. And I know that narcissism is not a diagnosis like chicken pox or sunburn – it isn’t that we have it or we don’t, it is that the compulsion, the protection we are seeking in this way can creep in to many of our lives and interactions. I am not a really good narcissist but I feel capable of amateur status and I feel compelled to practice something else. For my sake, for my children’s sake – calling us out of that place where shame is scarred in an effort to mend what is hidden. It is very easy to despair since the cure is not an antiviral or aloe vera and shade – I keep thinking of grace as patience with the process – and some days I don’t want to be patient.
wow!
my narcissist was my father and my pastor.
i eventually had to end my relationship with him, unfortunately that also pretty much ended my relationships with the rest of my family.
like ‘off the map’, i see it in my teenagers and worry. i also see things in myself and worry that i’m just like him.
AnonymousRe: Teenagers, there are a few developmental phases that include what’s called “Normal Narcissism.” Adolescence, and around ages 4-6 (“Mom, watch me! Look what I can do! WATCH!”). Worry not, parents!
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