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I have a friend I knew in high school whom I talk to from time-to-time. We lost touch after high school, which wasn’t really too surprising, and only re-connected a `few years ago with the help of Facebook. We’re the sort of people capable of having deep conversations about life, the universe and everything (and I don’t mean Douglas Adams’ novel). The most recent discussions have been about life journeys, both specifically and in general. She’s very intelligent.
We had a bit of a chat last night. I hadn’t realized until then that my friend is still strongly Christian, or at least has beliefs that line up, even though she is “between churches”. My faith isn’t so solid anymore, however. That makes it hard to talk about things like Bible provenance, or supra-christian belief systems.
I hope I haven’t made a mistake.
What’s the mistake?
Oh glory. I shouldn’t try to post on web forums when I’m not well.
I was hoping to (re)find a friend in her to talk about the problems with the church and christendom and personal spirituality. I had even told her about TLS and my blog. Now I’m not so sure I should have.
Wow, that’s almost word for word what happened to me recently. Staticsan, you have my complete sympathy.
Childhood friend I’ve stayed loosely in touch with over the years, we’ve kept each other abreast of the big developments in our lives-moves, job changes, key spiritual experiences, etc. Recently we’ve been e-mailing back and forth about our current spiritual journeys. Like you, I was hoping for a non-judgemental conversation where I could just kick around thoughts and whatnot.
This last round of e-mails where we had discussed that I don’t hold the bible to be inerrant, infallible, and literally true but she does, she asked if I still considered myself a christian and why. I told her yes, and why, and also explained that often I doubt 1) if there is a deity 2) if that deity is the “Christian” god. She e-mailed back and as gently and politely as possible told me that based on my response she wouldn’t consider me a christian (and provided her definition of christian, the standard evangelical definition). That really hurt my feelings and I’m regretting having been so honest. When did 100% certainty become a pre-requisit for being a Real Christian TM? On the other hand, her response did provide me with several insights into myself for example: right now self-identifying as “christian” is still an important part of my identity and that I’m more afraid of hell (even though I question it’s existence) than I realized.
Anyway, it really sucked having someone I respect and like question and basically invalidate my spiritual journey, no matter how kindly the sentiment was phrased.
Oh, and thanks for the link to your blog Staticsan, working my way through it and really resonating with a lot of what you’ve learned and experienced. Best of luck with your friend.
Anonymous@Staticsan remember the number one rule of TLS? lol
No, I sort of did the same thing with a good friend who still has a lot of hope for the church changing in her midst. She lectured me on how I am really embracing a community with a whole lot of “1st-world” problems. Her comment meant that while we are here bellyaching about the church, she is out saving the world with the church. I tried not to be too offended, because I care about her and know she meant no harm. I explained to her that the kind of stuff that the church has done to people over the years is nothing to scoff at. She said she understood, but she does not understand how someone could spend so much time talking about it. Then she said “I mean get over it.” I asked her if she says that to people who are clinically depressed and she quickly said “no.” I smiled and she got quiet. I didn’t mention TLS again to her.
We have plenty of other stuff in common.
Ja, this speaks to me of the utter need to connect and share – and how unfortunately often it’s easier on a blog like this than to have the conversations you want to have on a more personal level. I shared with a family member once my faith doubts etc (it was a one-way conversation) and the next thing I get a Bill Hybels book arriving in the mail. It made me mad – my conversation had been outsourced. Too late I often discover, ‘pearls before swine’ (that’s a pretty insulting line isn’t it? oh well !) I’ve also been shamed twice so far this year (keeping a tally!) for not identifying as a middle of the road, straight line Christian (for want of a better description). I honestly feel that I can’t be authentic because I’m so nebulous, I can’t give a 2 second sound-byte pat answer, and because of my family’s traditional faith background which is my ‘heritage’. I really liked Jo’s response:
“I haven’t left God, but like Elvis, I HAVE left the building”
but often I feel the need to remain evasive and flippant, dodge the topic, or control it by politely keeping the other person as the main subject.
PS I make sure I never tell anyone about TLS as I don’t want to meet them here ! Ah, there’s no such thing as six degrees of separation theory in Australia, it’s more like two!
PPS I’m trying to figure out where the picture on your blog is from staticsan, any clues? (doesn’t look south coast?)
I think the mistake I made with my friend from high school is assuming that because she understand that I’ve deliberately disconnected from “churchianity”, she would also understand that I’ve also disconnected from “christianity”, too. I know there are many people on TLS that have done the former but not the latter, and then there are other people who have done both. Often, when people do both, they go agnostic or athiest. Not me. I’m still a spiritual person. If you’ve read my blog carefully, particular the more recent posts, you would guess I’m heading into Wicca. It is very difficult, though, to find other people on my journey.
Somewhat ironically, I do have a few other friends who would be right at home here. They’ve been hurt or annoyed by the church before for whatever reason and do understand this sort of journey because we’ve spoken about this before. One of those was very interested in my thoughts about the Bible’s provenance, for instance.
(The picture on my blog is definitely from the Illawarra south of Sydney! I know this because I took it myself. I just can’t remember which beach it was. I have a feeling it might be looking north from Bombo beach.)
Anonymous@Helene – you post was great as usual. But I would disagree with somethign you say. You write that you don’t feel you can be authentic because you are not gicing a 2 second response. You are being authentice because you are taking things seriously, thinking for your self and not being caught up in a hearding instinct and giving the nice midel of the road “Christian” answer. Just this last week I expressed some things about myself. Basically saying to everyone in a group here I am what you see is what you get, I’m not going to pretend to anyone any more. If you like that, that’s cool and if that is offenseive to anyone then that’s their prbloem. Someone got thier finger in my face and had a sentence blurt out that included the word “God” and “you should” in it. You get the picture. To which my rsepnse was to say “OK so I’m suppoed to defer to what you say God would have me do then” being assertive at the same time. That person was silenced. They talked to me later and I explained to them why I spoe that way to them in public and how frightening it was when they had been like that. Having reflected on it what I had done was eveprince fear and face it in the manner of turnign the other cheek. The Holy Spirit worked in power in the other person and they shut up – made an embarrasement of themselves in front ot the group – using thier strength against them. I came faith later in life and used to defer to others when there was doubt over something. It led me to feel beaten down, and afraid, frustrated and hurt. In recent months, having some space fomr church, I have grown in confidence and able to engage in such a way as I describe. I still have doubts, fears frustrations hurts but somehow they don’t fell like the fire breathing dragons they used to be and are more tame nowadays. Perfect love casts out fear?
@john – you touched on an important point. I know that many who are questioning their membership of churches recognise that there are things wrong with the church. A significant number of these people try to work from within to encourage change. There are others who are encouraged to continue to attend; listen to what they hear, eat the meat and spit out the bones. That can at times be helpful because it reinforces what people see as some of the errors. But for the majority there seems to come a time when they recognise that the organisation isn’t going to change because of what they are suggesting. Hence the recognition of the time to depart.
@Helene – I think I understand what you mean when you say you can’t give a two sec sound bite answer. I’ve been on this journey outside the box of traditional Christianity for some 40 years. I started questioning the teaching of the trinity when I was 13 and nearly 65 years later I’m still asking questions. The difference now is that after asking these questions my understanding of the Christian FAITH has changed out of all recognition. I now have a faith that I don’t have to defend – but my view of the gospel is based on my own journey (that has been very unusual) – and is just one small part of the overall picture. Everyone else will see things differently because of their own experience.
I’m still asking those same questions but now I’m asking them so that others have the chance of considering aspects that they may never have thought about – and may never have been encouraged to think about – especially if they are questioning theology (the doctrines devised by men).
I have a view that has been arrived at by piecing together many pieces of the jigsaw – some of which just don’t seem to fit together very well – the place of cognitive dissonance!
I’m very much an introvert. Instead of getting into lengthy discussions I would much prefer to point to something I have written and ask, “what do you think of this?”. I don’t want anyone to agree with all I’ve written – just think for themselves. I’m now 77 and I felt a few months ago that it was time to put together many of the questions I have been considering. I finished rewriting my blog a few weeks ago – but it’s quite a long story.
Are there any other introverts who would like to share their thoughts?
AnonymousHey Pete – great story – loving the piceces of the jogsaw that don’t fit with the cognitive dissoance.
I’m in the UK too and studying a Masters in Theology. What I have learnt both in my sudies and expereincs is that what I know is but a drop in the ocean to what there is to know and be aware of. And every day, every person I come intot contact with is a new expereince and somethign that has the potential to be enriching.
I recall at time either through the teaching of my church or my own arrogance, that I thought I had all the answers that others need to adhere to. I understand that for many if all churches and peopl that never is the intention fot be like that but that reality is that the regard for the other whether the other be in the form of a differnt religion, demomination etc or just someone who asks questions that people don’t like to hear then they can be mistreated. Sadly I would confess to having done my fair share of that in my time.
It takes courage to step out of the crowd, be free thinking ask questions and even say to an insitution hold on a minute, what about this or that’s not right.It seems to me that this is what Jesus talks of with the prophetic and prophets being without honour and stoned. Perhaps ther are a few prophets that have founr their way to TLS.
Coincidently, I was thinking this past weekend about friends of mine who are VERY strongly Christian in their beliefs, and how awkward it might be for all involved when we see each other again. At the time that I met both of them (each about 12 years ago), I thought my Christian beliefs were unshakeable. Not that I am looking to stir up any controversy. I actually dislike confrontation (though I do not fear it).
My friend “M” moved away to N.C. once she married a Christian man and started a family. A year and a half ago, she game me airline miles to come and stay with her and her husband and 2 young kids. I have yet to go, though I hope to this year. I am just afraid they will not recognize me now! They infuse Christianity into most conversations, vote conservatively, attend church regularly at a conservative little Southern church, take turns hosting weekly Bible studies in various homes over baked goods. While I do not want to offend them, I also do not want to live a lie wile I am visiting them in their home. They are very sweet people. But I always thought to some degree that they were bigoted and narrow-minded. I do not say that in a mean way, but it is true. I love them very much. Much of their bigotry is subtle, and is cloaked in Churchianity. I always sort of felt like the black sheep among them. And I would even more so now. I can still accept them, but I am not sure they will accept me. They will see me as backslidden and “lost”. It hurts to think of losing this friendship. “M” and I had so many wonderful times, even running a cake business together. We were best friends.
My other friend, “C”, is a deeply religious woman. While her strong faith was always impressive to me, we had sort of a falling out a few years ago when she did not have time for me anymore. She had begun attending a church which taught that a person could lose their salvation, and I found the pastor and his wife to be very manipulative and their message was emotionally driven. They were always trying to get people to empty out their wallets. There were services to attend during the week, and then on Sundays there was 3 hours in the morning and 3 hours at night, with a reprieve in the middle to spend time with family at home. She would tell me that she felt the least she could give God was one entire day of the week, for all He was giving to her. I did not know how to confront that at the time, but now I realize it was all about the church and fear. Aside from the influence of such a toxic church, her Nigerian husband abandoned the family, her kids attended a Christian school where the boy was routinely spanked by teachers for acting out, and “C” became stricter at home, bordering on downright abusive. Her son had many food allergies, so he could not even have things such as pizza, which was very hard when he would go to events such as birthday parties of his classmates. If he ate something he should not, his face and throat would swell, and would be taken to the emergency room. Instead of pity, she would chide him on the way home, telling him he needed to stop submitting to his flesh and submit to Christ. The boy was 7. He had many incidents of bedwetting even at 12 years of age. It was all very difficult to witness. We still talk form time to time, pretty much once or twice a year at this point. I used to spend Saturdays with her, talking and laughing for hours, before all of that started. I now feel like if I saw her, I would be unable to bite my tongue. He “faith” has damaged not only her life, but the lives of her children. I think she sees herself as righteous. She will see me as backslidden. She may even see me as “lost”.
It is very hard to keep up friendships when there is so little left in common. I look back now, and see the old me as rigid and unbending and always on guard. Now I have a peace I never had then, an acceptance of others which feels like LOVE instead of judgment. As Christians, we are told that only true joy and peace come from knowing Jesus, and I believed it and was afraid to step away from the church and the Bible. I see things so differently now, and I don’t have the certainty I used to about anything anymore. While that is not always easy, it feels right to me. I now feel “I don’t know” is a better answer than “I know” in many areas of life. Unfortunately, there will come a time in each of these friendships where the conversation will lead to matters of faith, and things will get difficult.
I thought I could help change my church from within. I thought I knew about how hard this was to do and how long it would take. And if radical change was happening, we lose people, too. It happened some years ago: as a church we were heading into charismatic territory but unusually we were bringing along some intelligent evangelism with it. But it got too much for some people who didn’t want things to change so fast. Yet we were growing and were just about to consider two Sunday morning services.
That pastor is gone now. And that was a difficult transition.
Now, I see the current (new-ish) pastor taking the church forward in a somewhat different direction. But he is much more experienced. And sad to say, I think we’re waiting for one old couple to die.
But that is about my church. And I’m different, now, too. I wouldn’t be satisfied with the previous growth described above and for much the same reasons I’m not happy with it now. In fact, this is similar to why I won’t go back to my previous church. There was no bad blood, but I left to get out from under my parents’ shadow. Going back there is kind of like the old friend problem times one hundred.
My old friend has had problems with churches, mostly from family involvements. It’s not my place to say any more.
Sometimes such trials with the machinations of man sour people towards the religion. Sometimes it strengthens it. We’re all on our own journeys, after all, and we disregard that fact to our peril.
@staticsan, Bombo Beach – don’t know it, but it looks beautiful. Happy childhood memories of holidays at Bundeena (south of Cronulla) and Rosedale (Batemans Bay).
@Adam-Julians, I often feel folks want the quick, pat answer, not one that requires active listening skills… (as evidenced by how we say “how are you doing?” as a greeting and it’s a social no-no to give a genuine reply).
AnonymousYes, what you say about people wanting the quick answer often is something I also have found to be true. “How are you”, “I’m fine”. Drives me nuts. I once was asked how my week was by a pastor’s wife and I said it had been terrible, describing what had happened. She got up in front of the church and said there had been someone she had spoken to that had told her that their week had been terrible and she didn’t want to hear that on a Sunday morning. Next week she saw me and was aware that I was wary of her and avoiding her. Noticing something was wrong she asked me what was going on. I told her that what I had shared the previous wekk had left me vulneable tt not wanting and that what she said about not wanting to hear someone say their week had been terrible, had made things worse for me. She broke down in tears.
Now when I have such conversations I put on a mask and even if I am dying inside, I say I am fine. And I choose to talk about such things with people who I carefully choose and who I can have such conversations with without being worse off from sharing and having honest conversations with them.
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