This topic contains 10 replies, has 9 voices, and was last updated by 
-
Posts
-
I’m planning on going home in about 2 months and my guess is my grandparents will insist that I stay with them and even if I don’t, they will at least ask me to go to church with them. I’m not sure how I will handle that?
When I visited my mom and sister a few months ago I went to church with them and I literally felt like I was going to lose my head by the end each time. Psychologically, I can’t even explain it all but it’s just such a challenge for me. I feel like it would be easiest to just go and pretend and play the game as I have so many times before but inside I don’t know if I will be able to handle it. And I can’t think of any excuse to NOT go other than “yeah, I don’t consider myself christian anymore” and I am really unprepared to have that conversation.
I don’t know, perhaps I’m just making a bigger deal out of this than need be
I totally understand that pressure. When my parents come I still buckle internally under the authority of my father. But I still won’t go to church like he thinks I should, etc… I guess I came to the conclusion it is easier to just say no than do what he thinks I should do.
I have some pretty ironclad reasons for not going to church. My main reason is I don’t want to be brainwashed into basing my life on fear and this is what I tell my mom and brothers. When they protest that Christianity isn’t about fear I simply bring up the fact that if I don’t agree with them their god is going to burn me in the lake of fire. I also ask them if they have read the Bible lately.
They often say that they don’t experience fear and I say, “Good for you! I don’t have the same experience and I’m not willing to compromise my integrity to make you happy. I find no evidence of true spiritual value in the sermons at church and while they may have meaning for you, you haven’t been able to provide any rational reason that I can make sense of. I honestly believe that Christianity is based in fear and I don’t want to support any system of thought that teaches people to use fear as the basis for their life choices. I love you and I can clearly separate you from your ideas and beliefs, but going to church to make you happy is not love.”
It took me a while to hold this line and my consistency has brought the respect of my family. They may not agree with me, but they know they don’t have a sufficient answer and have largely resorted to being super nice to me as a means to convince me. It’s kind of creepy at times, but I don’t have to fight over the going to church thing.
I have found that when you want to make that step out, whatever it may be, reflect on what the worst possible outcome could be, and decide, can I live with that? If you go ahead, treat them with as much respect and love as you can, even if they don’t do the same to you. One thing that has worked for me is the stories of immigrants leaving horrid conditions in Europe and coming here , and making very successful lives for themselves. When I had to leave something I couldn’t tolerate any more, I looked at myself as a Spiritual immigrant, moving to greener pastures, and I could retake control of things and make a better life for myself. So far it has always worked. I think a physical immigration to a better life, and freedom, is the same as a Spiritual immigration to mental and emotional freedom.
@Richard Well said!
I think there is definitely some kind of higher level of insult felt when you tell those close to you that you now reject the doctrine of their religious practice, particularly when it comes to Christianity and church. My parents are Atheists (well, my dad is probably more Agnostic), but my partner’s parents are devout Christians and are pretty strict when it comes to church. Being that they have oversaw us both going for over three years now, to learn that we aren’t would not go down well at all, especially considering that my partner has been attending for a lot longer than I have. The only way we can get away with it is because we attend a different church and we just listen to the sermons online so we at least can talk about them. We still have to listen to the rubbish sprouted from the pulpit but we at least avoid the church situation itself. Telling them that we don’t really consider ourselves ‘Christian’ anymore and don’t agree with church and its doctrines is a conversation I think we would both rather never have with them.
It’s really hard to have that conversation – I live in a Christian culture where the first question asked is almost always: “Where do you go to church?”, and the expected answer is a single Sunday meeting known to the questioner. I never quite know what answer to give.
It’s really not the question my life revolves around.
Something closer to the truth would be: how have you served the people in your workplace/school/neighbourhood recently?
I used to attend church with family members, but then got the point where I believed it was just a religious ceremony for them, and wasn’t going to lead to any lasting friendships, so I stopped going. (Even though I still has my own, different Sunday church group – it was complicated.)
AnonymousI agree this whole issue is a tough one, and it depends on your own family dynamics plus other factors…. like how often you see them, etc. If you’re going to live with them it’s different than if it’s a visit once or twice a year. I waffle between wanting to be known for who I really am and keeping the peace. I’ve decided that if it’s christmas I’ll go with them for the sake of tradition. With my brother’s family it’s still hard to decide cause they have kids and joining them for church is kind of like participating in a family event. With my parents long ago I told them I’m not comfortable and disagree strongly with what’s being said, so they don’t bug me about it when I’m visiting them.
I have decided that I respect the fact that they are not trying to make me believe like them, and in return I won’t try to throw all the inconsistencies about christianity in their faces.
I grow so weary of having Christianity lumped into such a homogeneous belief system. As if the only definition of it is a fear-based, magical, other-worldly, life-after-death system. Many churches, mine included, are truly welcoming and affirming, are open to questions and exploration, and don’t give a whole lot of thought to what happens after but concerns itself with how to live now. How to live a loving life now. How to live a just life now. That is a Christianity I can accept, and one which I think is more in keeping with what Jesus taught. Love your neighbor as yourself. Don’t judge, not your business. I am saddened that that isn’t the Christian voice we hear more often in the public square, although I have heard Pres. Obama speak theologically in those terms. I think there is value in working these things out in community, in my case a Christian one. We need community. We never leave community. What is happening here at TLS is a church community of sorts. I see no reason why the Christian church can’t also be that kind of community, where tradition and scripture are a starting point for exploration but that equally honors our reason and intellect. I feel like that is happening in my tradition, albeit not as quickly as I would like. But just because I’m in a different place doesn’t mean I feel I should throw the baby out with the bath water. The Christian community has always been a polyglot of beliefs, so I would caution anyone who says “The Christian church is this, or that” therefore I should reject it, it’s all bad. Some elements need evolution. I hope that will happen.
It’s true that you have over 40,000 different versions of Christianity. And obviously there are really incredible people who are Christians. I think the confusion comes in defining Christianity. Is it still Christianity if you don’t need Jesus to die for your sins? What’s the good news of Christianity if you don’t need saving?
I tried to make Christianity into something my intellect could respect, but I couldn’t figure out how to do it. As long as you retain Jesus as the savior of the world you have a fear based system.
Pragmatically the community of certain Christian churches is clearly beneficial and helps to provide a focus for positive change for some people. And on a pragmatic basis I often refer people to these communities if it’s a good fit for where they are at. Some people are still so imbedded in the Jesus world view that they have no reference for other ways of finding meaning.
What I find is that eventually even these upgraded Christian communities run their course and some people hit the same walls I did. This is not a good, bad, right or wrong issue. It’s about a path of change and growth.
At this point in my life I’m a direct experience type of person. I don’t claim anything to be true that I haven’t directly experienced. I’ve lived long enough to know that certain things don’t work and I have been able to eliminate those paths as legitimate areas of exploration. The bulk of what I face in the future is in the unknown and I have come to the acceptance of that reality.
I also recognize the wealth of experiences that defy definition. Christianity, like other labels, becomes a label that essentially reduces the wonder of what each person can find through a process of being open and rigorously honest with themselves.
This is what I express with my family. This is not about being right. This is about a commitment to truth. And if I am really going to take Jesus serious when he says, “The truth will set you free” then if that path leads me away from Christianity then that is where I go.
Anonymous@SavageSoto, this is probably really obvious, but I just wanted to say that you are having to choose between your Self and Relationship (with your grandparents), and that is so unfair. There’s not an easy answer, because you will have to sacrifice something painful no matter which you choose. I’m sorry you’re in this position.
Personally, I have done both. I have told my self, “We are going to sit through church and go crazy for 90 minutes, but I will be on your side the whole time.” It’s a bit split-personality of me, but it helps to reassure me that I won’t abandon myself. And I take frequent bathroom breaks when I’m in a place I don’t like. And I tweet from said bathroom.
I’ve also said, “I won’t be going to your church, because it arouses feelings in me that are not good for my relationship with you, and I really value my relationship with you.” This went over very rocky the first time, slightly smoother the second and third time as they got used to me being me. The first time was definitely the hardest.
Just please know that you won’t be choosing wrong or right with whatever you do pick. It’s an impossible situation.
Anonymous@Richard: well said!
‘To pretend, or not?’ has been on my mind a lot this week, because I, too, have been struggling with just that. A co-worker and I have been discussing this. She is LDS and permanently separated from her husband. She would like to get divorced, but you can’t stay LDS and be divorced. Part of her would like to stay connected to her community because she loves them. The other part of her is sickened by the teachings. I told her that I’m kind of biting my lip and smiling and nodding a lot. She said that won’t fly in her community. Either you believe what they say, or you’re not in the community. I have an idea for what she’s feeling.
A year ago I started attending another ‘seeker friendly’ evangelical church, very similar to the one I used to pastor in, which was a huge risk, but important because I want my son to grow up in a spiritual community, and I can’t find one that’s not imperialistic and exclusive. The people there drew me in, instantly, because many of them are so authentic. But as I continued to attend, disappointment and sometimes horror sank in as I saw how deeply evangelicalism reigned in the power structure and in their paradigms.
While sitting through more evangelical rhetoric this morning (pastor had the congregation chanting, ‘my story + God’s story = History’) I thought of what I’ve learned from a number of readings from Fr. Richard Rohr. I learned to stop thinking ‘this is right and that is wrong’, but ‘this is Truth… if it is true, it is true everywhere for everyone’ and if its not Truth, I don’t have to throw it out, but simply go ‘hmmm’. By doing so I am able to hold all things in my life and in my heart. I don’t have to figure everything out, but just allow Truth to emerge… allow the river to flow… allow the great mystery to Be…
I struggled A LOT with this concept initially. Interestingly the spiritual teacher that emerged in my life in 2012 is someone who practices the Vedic Culture. I remember being frustrated about 3 months into my spiritual awakening because other people in my life ‘just didn’t get it!’. And in the kindest, most loving, Buddha/Yoda-ish way possible, he told me that the reason I was judging other people around me, was because I was judging myself.
Since then I’ve realized that is true 100% of the time. When I judge other people and/or feel frustrated, aggravated, etc, it comes back to me, not having patience and love for myself. When I remember that I used to think ‘that way’ just 3 months or 3 years ago, I don’t even have to muster up patience for others, I’m just able to accept them where they are at, and allow love and compassion to flow in my heart for them, exactly as they are right now. I can only imagine how they must be beating themselves up because I used to do the same.
But not everyone can survive in their spiritual community that way; like my co-worker. She either lives the prescribed life, or she has to get out. It will be interesting to watch her journey.
As for me, I think I will follow Fr. Richard’s suggestion that “Everything Belongs”, and it does. My son’s autism belongs. The people who are stuck in evangelicalism belong ‘for they know not what they do’, those of us who might be called ‘the emerging church’ belong, even if we don’t gather together under a roof and sing, atheists belong… everyone. Everything. And it is important for those of us who have emerged from the church to bring truth and love to whatever we experience. And if I’m choosing to still experience the evangelical church, then I will continue to bring love and truth. Ultimately my journey can only be lived by me, and God still daily draws me to Himself in ways that, quite frankly, shock me. And so I observe, nod, and go “hmm.”
Thanks for this discussion, everyone. SO HELPFUL.
You must be logged in to reply to this topic.