This topic contains 19 replies, has 12 voices, and was last updated by 
David Hayward 2 years ago.
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We all have expectations. When we go to a service establishments, we expect a certain level of service, especially if we’re paying for it. However, when it comes to spirituality I like to be open – without expectations and pre-conceived idea. I’ve learned that when you’re open and receptive, you’re better able to really hear what others have to say and learn from them.
What do we expect when we go to a church or a place of worship? I used to show up expecting to be challenged. I didn’t want to be spoon fed. I wanted genuine teaching that made me think bigger than the message. I was open, but I still had expectations.
Today I had a talk with a friend about the community here. She’s a “strong” Christian and she wanted to know if the presence of atheists and non-theists in this community was part of the expectations of the Christians here. She said when people are on a spiritual journey they need people around them that are “spiritual.” My lack of faith in a place like this seems out of place for her. She can’t quite understand how I still considered myself to be spiritual. Earlier this week I had a chat with a member of this group that already had me thinking about expectations and this site. I personally have none. I’m just here to listen and learn. I’d hate for a non-Christian presence here to be an issue for others. I’d actually be deeply saddened by it.
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This topic was modified 2 years, 1 month ago by David Hayward.
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This topic was modified 1 year, 11 months ago by David Hayward.
AnonymousWho defines, “spiritual?” Why do we put spiritual within a Christian/church box? Each time someone on here comments or shares their story, I glean something new. It doesn’t matter if I agree or not, I love the journeys they are on…the spiritual journeys. I hear their hearts as they talk. And each person challenges my thinking (both spiritually and intellectually) and they challenge my own journey. I don’t see it as being an issue for others and hope that is why we are all here together. To listen, learn and love. I would be sad too servantgirl, if it was different.
Thanks Maliborn. Sometimes it’s good to sleep on things. When I asked that question last night I was hurt by some of the things my friend had to say, things I didn’t talk about.
I don’t believe that spirituality=faith. I don’t believe that spirituality is about the Holy Spirit. I don’t believe it’s about making a connection with or living to align my spirit with the teachings of a creator/god/deity. My journey is one that I started as a Christian, but transitioned into one without a god.
I’m a human being and therefore fully flawed. I’m prone to anger, make mistakes, and hurt others – inflicting pain without the backing of a belief system. I have the right to think about the horrors of my childhood and curl into a ball of pain and depression. However I choose not to. The fact that a friend, someone who has known me for years, cannot fathom how a person without faith can have a spirit or will within them strong enough to love others, regardless of their religious differences hurts like hell and if I’m honest it pisses me the hell off.
I hate expectations, assumptions, and stereo-types. My journey has helped me build relationships with people of other faiths that I would never have done as a Christian. It has allowed me a level of accountability and honesty that I did not possess before. My friend got that. What she doesn’t get – what she actually said was, “People who don’t have a belief system can’t possibly be on a spiritual journey. What exactly are you trying to find if not a closer connection to your creator? I love you, but I would not take advice about spiritual things from you. You have no god. How can you help others that do?” Yeah I’m still pretty furious.
Hmmm. It seems to me that different communities may need different things from each other, and that people might need different things from different communities. (We are large; we contain multitudes, to paraphrase Emerson.) I suppose it’s also possible that there are communities that work for some people and are toxic for others. (I am more doubtful about this, because I worry that any community that is toxic for someone may have a problem at its heart.)
This community, I think, is about exploring the world outside the well-trodden confines of various religious traditions. You might call us surveyors in the land of freethought. At least that’s the image I had when you brought this issue up, servantgirl!
Anonymous“People who don’t have a belief system can’t possibly be on a spiritual journey. What exactly are you trying to find if not a closer connection to your creator? I love you, but I would not take advice about spiritual things from you. You have no god. How can you help others that do?”
Wow! That’s all that comes to mind. Not too profound but honestly, what people think and say still shocks me. It makes me pretty furious too.
That’s why I continue to use the word “spiritual” no matter who I’m talking with. My atheist friends understand that it generally means that there is an unseen dimension, a mystery, a component of being human, that is beyond body and mind.
AnonymousSince leaving the church and my religious roots 15 years ago, I feel a deeper connection on a spiritual level than ever before. For me, religion got in the way of my spiritual growth if that makes any sense. Great topic for discussion servantgirl!
AnonymousEvangelical Christians teach that we’re supposed to have “real” friends who share our faith and “friends with an agenda” who we consider to be our “mission field”–we’re supposed to get them to convert. In a Bible study once, we were watching a popular evangelical preacher who said that he has a very close friend who isn’t a Christian and that he has no expectations on this friend to change. A woman in the group was shocked by this and said that she couldn’t understand being close with someone and not trying desperately to “save” them, because we are supposed to live in fear for unbelievers’ immortal souls.
It took me a long time to break out of that mindset, that I couldn’t be “real” friends with a non-Christian, and that I had to be wary and keep my distance with family (my family members are all over the map spiritually, but none of them are Christians). When I let go of that, I found that my non-Christian friends and family actually had more of a positive influence on my spiritual health than many of my Christian friends.
So no, I don’t think it’s bad to have people of all stripes in the same place.
Thanks Amy. Interesting story, but I’ve witnessed the same kind of thing.
One of the kindest, most giving person I have ever known was an atheist. The person who cheated me out of tens of thousands of dollars was a christian pastor. So I’ve come a long way in realizing that we need to accept people for who they are and not what label they choose to say they are.
Labels don’t necessarily match the contents.
I was going to make a point about labels and David got there first. I don’t think everyone who says they are an atheist necessarily is; though they have a concept of god they reject. And not everyone who say they are a Christian is. Jesus did say it’s the people who do the word, not just hear it, who are his disciples. And Matthew 25 says there will be those who serve Christ unawares.
Some Christians are too quick to define who’s in and who’s out, when that’s not our decision to make. Also those who say we have nothing to learn from non-Christians – a breathtakingly arrogant statement.
I’ve also noticed, on some internet forums, those who are very quick to take offence if someone disagrees with them; as though they are not there to discuss anything, but just reinforce the beliefs they already have.
This is all a roundabout way of saying how pleased I am to be in spiritual conversations with anyone willing to have the conversations; be they atheists, Christians, or any other faith.
Anonymousservantgirl – That was really an incredibly insensitive and painful thing for your friend to say! I don’t blame you for being angry.
What she said reminded me of some toxic song lyrics I learned as a young child in Sunday School:
One door and only one, and yet its sides are two, I’m on the inside, on which side are you? One door and only one, and yet its sides are two, I’m on the inside, on which side are you?
In light of that kind of rigid indoctrination, is it any wonder “Christians” say totally narrow-minded, ignorant, arrogant stuff like that when many of them have been brainwashed from an early age in Sunday School all the way through adulthood, to believe that THEIR SPIRITUAL BELIEF SYSTEM is the ONLY BELIEF SYSTEM THAT IS RIGHT?
Especially when they know if they ever go against that system they will be labeled, shunned, considered dangerous to talk to, and that they will be an outcast who is now on the wrong side of the door – the one “on the OUTSIDE” looking in???
To be able to walk away from that kind of rigid belief system (and all the accolades and acceptance that go with it) requires incredible courage and strength – and that is exactly what I see in you. servantgirl. The cost of walking away and finally thinking for yourself is extremely high; your friend’s biting words are evidence of that.
Still…it does hurt, especially coming from someone who is supposed to be your friend. I’m so sorry you are hurting.
Ok, Jo, I digress. I’m thinking of the song I learned in Sunday school that went like this:
“I found happiness. I found peace of mind. I found the joy of living. Perfect love sublime. I found real contentment happy living with the Lord. I’ve found happiness all the time, wonderful peace of mind since I found the Lord.”
Oh I shudder. Such a crock. I have found happiness with all kinds of fellow travelers. Servantgirl, I love your posts. Keep rockin’ it sister!
Anonymousmaybe we should start a new post – toxic “Christian” song lyrics – ha! ha!
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