This topic contains 21 replies, has 13 voices, and was last updated by 
Danielle 4 months, 3 weeks ago.
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AnonymousHow did I miss your reply, Jo? Dangit. Oh well, I’m here now.
Thanks so much for being willing to share your experience of reading his book. I too share your feelings regarding the church, though I’m not anxious to watch it die. There’s a sadness there for me because I don’t hope that it has a chance of truly changing and though I have no interest in being a part of it anymore, I wish that I could hope that the collective consciousness of the church could in fact experience an upgrade of sorts. (Sorry guys, I’m really in this Game/computer analogy right now.) I’m more than happy to let the church’s own journey take its time getting from here to wherever it ends up. I am “in process,” so is the church.
What I am currently witnessing (and admittedly it’s through my own perspective which is based on my experiences and so is not Universal by any stretch) is that the world is stuck in seeing progress through the “eyes” of capitalism and to break that down even further, the world is stuck in seeing a person’s contribution only through the “eyes” of what that contribution is worth from a coins and bills perspective. The church is stuck in that as well. And on a global-conscious level, we’re scared of not surviving so we continue to uphold and support this perspective. We want/need to eat, we want/need to have a roof over our heads and the way to achieve this is with money and so we too are stuck within this perspective which is not life affirming in so many ways. Clergypeople are people who also want to maintain their status quo and also have a desire to survive. It only makes sense that the leaders of the institution attempt to keep things running “as-is” because their bread and butter depend on it.
In this way, the leaders of the church are not doing anything differently than what I am doing – which is to say, propping up the current system because of a desire to survive. I can’t be upset or angry at them for doing that. I can excuse myself from that particular exercise however, and have done so. And how easy was it for me to remove myself when the church was not my source of income? In the meantime though, I’m still propping up the system in the secular world by being a part of it in various ways.
I have a deep respect for clergy people who take risks like David and others have done because they had to do a lot of reflection and digging to get to the point where they are willing to take the risk of not surviving (in so many different ways) in order to allow for change within themselves. It starts within. Only when we change ourselves and our inner being can we affect change outwardly. David and others are walking the walk while still maintaining a compassion for the church in her turmoil and pangs – regardless of the eventual outcome. And I think that’s such a huge part of being in the moment.
When I consider all of this in this way, I wonder where Mr. McLaren got the idea that it would take only two decades to see these kinds of radical changes occur? LOL….How about two generations? Or four? Or six?
The church is a great symbol for something greater than itself. I would be sad to lose the greater thing because the symbol died.
AnonymousTana – I aree with many of the points you make. I was definitely in RANT mode and so negative in my original post. I want to be like you and David – people who have left the church but can still have compassion toward it. And also appreciate those clergy who are trying to make it a more healthy place too.
AnonymousJo,
Oh my goodness, I need to clarify – there is plenty of room for and reason for rants. I should also say – I’m not always in that state of mind.
In fact, in the short amount of time between when I wrote that post and now, I’ve completely lost my Zen. Haha. Such is life. But I want you to know – I honor your points. There is time for ranting – things need to be said out loud and brought into the light.
AnonymousTana – I didn’t think you were saying its not ok to rant at all – so no worries. Had to laugh at you saying you lost your zen today. That makes me feel better about being so sarcastic and down on the church!
I know I’m coming in here rather late. I’ve been on this journey a very long time. I wrote an article about ‘Stages of Faith‘ about 8 years ago where I suggested that the majority of people who attend church regularly could probably be described as in a ‘conformist stage‘ where they are acutely tuned to the expectations and judgments of significant others and where there is security of being part of a like-minded community.
I have never been part of an evangelical community. I have understood for many years that nobody goes to hell when they die. But over the last 10 years or so I have come to understand so much about why people believe what they believe, often as a result of divisive, denominational theology and that means a recognition of the place of FEAR on the part of so many evangelical church members.
I don’t know if my thoughts as an outsider might be of any help – see what you think.
Old Pete, thoroughly enjoyed your article, you have pretty much written was I was journalling an hour ago. I would love to have a conversation about it sometime…discuss ideas, views, experiences. I would even go as far as to add a fourth column, to the three columns you listed. I would also say I am overlapping in a lot of the stages. I also have drawn diagrams that are both linear and diagrms that are circular or perhaps a better word would be fractal. Awesome, will check out your blog more often! Thanks a lot for sharing!
I miss my old community, but no-one even checked up on me. Makes me wonder how deep those friendships really went. Small groups are wonderful at helping people in the group, then forgetting them the minute they leave.
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