Having a rough night.

[Deanna OgleParticipant]

Hi guys. I’m coming here because I don’t know who else to talk to. Here’s a quote that appeared on my Facebook wall after a little bit of a discussion. I don’t know how to deal with this:

We want to focus on the loving part of Christ, but not the judging. Jesus rescued the adulterous woman in a way that put the religious leaders in their place. But he didn’t stop there. He then confronted her about her sin and told her to “stop sinning.” With the woman at the well, Christ calls her on the carpet and points out her sinful lifestyle right on the spot. If we are to follow Christ’s example, are we not to do the same? Can we really follow his example if we do only one without the other? Can you be inclusive and point out people’s sins at the same time?Christ even offended his own disciples to the point that most of them left him! (John 6:53-67) He didn’t just butt heads with the religious leaders. He told the truth to everyone who listened, and yes, sometimes he was harsh about it.Christ tells his followers that the *world* will hate us like they hated him. He doesn’t say “religious leaders.” If he meant that, he would have said it. Instead, he says the “world”, which means the general systems, powers, and population. In fact, in John 7:7 he says the reason the world hates him is because he points out their evil deeds, not because he loved the unlovable. You can’t insert “religious leaders” where Christ doesn’t say it. It is much bigger, and much more general than that.In 2 Corinthians, Paul says a believer has nothing in common with unbelievers, and we are to separate ourselves from them. James (Jesus’ brother) tells us that being friends with the world is *hatred* toward God. We can’t just pretend these verses don’t exist. We can’t pick just the nice things Jesus said, and ignore the rest. We have to do the hard work of figuring out what they mean. (Hint: it doesn’t mean we are hateful, spiteful, and withdraw from society. But it certainly doesn’t mean we are totally inclusive, accepting, and quiet either.)We have to be careful not to pull verses out of context. Christ never tells us not to judge, he tells us not to judge hypocritically or without being merciful. In fact, he actually commands us *to* judge, just make sure we do it correctly (John 7:24). And that is the key. Judging is pointing out right from wrong. It is not “hateful”, nor does it have anything to do with being exclusive. Matthew 7 doesn’t end after verse 1, it is clear from the rest of the verses that we have work to do *first*, then we can clearly judge our brother.Finally, let’s not forget that God is a God full of love more than we can comprehend. But He is also a God that hates sin more than we can understand. We have a responsibility to present an accurate picture of God (and Jesus, as God, of course).The Jesus of the Gospels is the same God who wiped out the firstborn of all of Egypt for their disbelief, and it is the same Jesus coming back with a bloody robe slaughtering unrepentent nations with his sword. It is only because his wrath is so fierce that his love is so incredible. It is this dichotomy that should drive us. We should be radically loving. And we should be radical truth-tellers as well. One without the other does a disservice to those to whom we would minister.

(1) How is it possible that the Bible has a verse stating that we have nothing in common with unbelievers? Don’t we have everything in common with believers?

(2) Being in the world is hating god? I always thought that being in the world was operating at your base programming: being greedy, self-centered, hurting people purposefully (and sometimes indirectly), ignoring your neighbors, being an asshole, etc. I thought that the whole point of Jesus’ path was to work against that. You actively work to be a better person and to make the whole more whole.

(3) Also, if being in the world and hanging out with the unbelievers we have nothing in common with, then how did Jesus do that in his life? He hung out with Zaccheus and all the sinners that he wasn’t supposed to be around. So then, if we are to follow his example, how do we realistically “separate ourselves” from “the world”?

(4) I have a really hard time trying to be in a “relationship” with a god who wipes out first borns and wipes out whole nations. With that kind of power, how is free will possible?

God: “Love me! I’m loving. Just obey me, and everything will be fine! Otherwise, say goodbye to your babies!”

HOW IS THIS OKAY? I don’t want to believe in a god that would wipe out whole nations and kill the first born children! I don’t want that! And that’s supposed to drive me into love?

(5) I don’t know how to answer him without sounding like a crazy liberal or sounding like I want to chuck the Bible. I don’t know how to express myself without feeling like I am exactly what ever evangelical parent warned their kids against. I’m the worst kind in their eyes.

(6)  I’m feeling really distraught, and feeling crazy, and feeling like everyone is waiting at the gate for me to come out of the crazy closet to stone me. How do I respond to this? How do I press on?

I’m losing it.

Thanks for listening if you made it this far. I love you.

• This topic was modified 1 year, 11 months ago by  David Hayward.

[SavageSotoParticipant]

1) This is one of the places that I think the Bible is just incorrect
2) I agree with you
3) Yeah. I perceive the separation as more of a difference in how we interpret life. Do we interpret life according to “wordly” principles or according to “christ” principles? It doesn’t involve separating us from others so much, at least, that’s not how I look at it.
4) I do too, hence I don’t really believe God did such. Not necessarily everything in the bible is true.
5) You should answer according to your heart, not according to what you think someone wants to hear.  To some, you will be thought of as prophetic, to others, demonic. Unfortunately, that it how life is when it comes to belief.
6) I’m not sure how I would respond to this honestly. Just try to be respectful but honest about your doubts. You sound alot like where I was a few years ago, so I can relate.

[David HaywardKeymaster]

Wow Deanna. I noticed you invited me to chat last night but my daughter had talked me into a movie. Sorry I missed you.

I just want to say “gag me”. You are in a good place. You simply must press on with your own growth. People are going to try to prevent you, and they’ll use anything to do it, including threats. Well… they PERSONALLY won’t punish you, but THEIR GOD will! Punishment by proxy (cartoon in there somewhere!).

And why are such people so verbose? I’ll tell you why: because it takes a LOT of mental gymnastics to reach their conclusions.

[Anonymous]

Deanna, hey! We’re in Crazytown together.  I’m so sorry you’re experiencing this. I have a love/hate relationship with Facebook. I wonder why people continue to try to instigate “conversations” like these through that venue. Okay, sorry for the tangent.

Anyway, I agree with your feelings regarding #1-#4. Can’t add to what you’ve already said and may I echo David’s “gag me.” It’s so tiring. The fact is, a lot can’t be reconciled – not neatly and not authentically if continued to be used to support a specific kind of god or specific belief in God.

So #5…. have you considered that you don’t have a responsibility to reply at all? I’m suggesting this – I’m not making a statement. I just found a lot of freedom and peace when I stopped worrying about how to answer for myself because I don’t owe anyone else an answer. In my old faith paradigm, I owed everyone an explanation for everything I did and said and believed. It was control masked by a very dysfunctional accountability program. I don’t subscribe to that anymore and so I have to force myself to stop, think, consider before I answer people these days because the old tendency to lay my guts before swine is still there.

But no, I don’t owe even my mother an explanation. If people push, I usually say something along the lines of, “I’m sorry it bothers you that we approach God or “X” from different perspectives. I hope you find peace in yours and allow me to find peace in mine.”

Something like that…

Granted, not answering them or answering them with that kind of a response might very well get you emotionally ostracized. That’s happening to me so I can attest to it. But again, their need to emotionally ostracize me isn’t my problem. It’s theirs.

I wish you good luck in dealing with this, but mostly I hope peace for you.

[R2Participant]

Hi Deanna,  Wow that was quite a speech they gave!

I am (unfortunately) all to familiar with the stuff that person posted and the folks that think that way. No amount of discussion will change their mind, and your time is too valuable to waste on it. You can expend a whole bunch of energy and emotion worrying, and trying to help them understand, but I don’t think it’s worth it. (At best, you may get the “Well, I respect your right to be wrong” line. That’s all the further I ever got with them).

If you want to reply, here is an article I like on the subject that uses the same Bible-based reasoning your friend may understand, to get a different result…

http://pastorwalt.hubpages.com/hub/JESUS-CAME-NOT-TO-CONDEMN

This verse may apply to the verboseness of your friend.. LOL

 If you think you are being religious, but can’t control your tongue, you are fooling yourself, and everything you do is useless.  (James 1:26 Bible CEV Translation)

Keep on truckin’  

[Anonymous]

That Facebook post is SO TOXIC I don’t even know where to begin! Please believe me when I say you are NOT crazy!!! They are the crazy ones and their theology is totally WRONG! What about the bible verse that says: “Judge not, lest you be judged”?

The only people God was harsh with in the New Testament were the religious leaders (Pharisees,) of his day.  Jesus certainly didn’t go out of his way to engage them and when he couldn’t avoid them,  sometimes he answered their questions and accusations and sometimes He didn’t! He wasn’t going to expend time or energy on them, because He knew they had their narrow minds made up and they weren’t going to be open to the truth. So he moved on to people who wanted what he had to offer – which was unconditional love and outrageous grace!

I agree with the people who said you are NOT obligated to even respond to that Facebook post, or if you do, don’t put a lot of heart and soul into responding cuz it won’t change their minds in the least. If you disagree with them, all they will do is self-righteously condemn you and who needs that? The Bible says: “Don’t cast your pearls before swine” and that is advice I think you should take!

I don’t know what to think about the Old Testament stories of God wiping people out, etc. Legalists take everything in the bible literally but I don’t think it is meant to be taken that way. Plus I don’t see how the people who wrote the Bible could not help but bring their personal bias and opinions into what they were writing. And what about those who decided what to include in the Bible and what to keep out?  I would bet things that should have been included were left out and some things that were included should not have been included.

I just have to address some things that jumped out at me from that Facebook post:

“let’s not forget that God is a God full of love more than we can comprehend.” [AMEN! BUT HOW CAN WE POSSIBLY COMPREHEND LOVE WHEN WE ARE CONSTANTLY BEING BARRAGED BY GUILT, FEAR, SHAME, INTIMIDATION, AND WRATH MESSAGES FROM PASTORS AND OTHER CHRISTIANS??? Fear CANNOT motivate us to love God, ourselves or anyone else!

“But He is also a God that hates sin more than we can understand…  It is only because his wrath is so fierce that his love is so incredible.”

Jesus fully and completely absorbed ALL of God’s wrath toward sin when He hung on the cross. He has already paid for every single sin every single person in the world has or  ever will commit. THE WAR ON SIN IS OVER; GOD’S WRATH (IF it ever existed in the first place?) has been SATISFIED, SO THERE IS NO MORE NEED FOR GOD’S WRATH! God’s wrath was ALL poured out on Jesus and we have been redeemed and declared righteous, holy, and perfect! PERIOD!

“It is this dichotomy that should drive us. We should be radically loving.”               First of all, a loving Shepherd doesn’t drive his sheep, he leads them. So many legalistic Christians are driven by fear, shame, guilt, and especially the condemnation of legalistic church leaders.

Yes, we should be radically loving, but the only way we can ever do that is to understand God’s unconditional love for us, and KNOW that He fully accepts, affirms, approves, and adopts us as His very own!

Please take a deep breath, and realize that you are not crazy. You are up against crazy theological beliefs that are twisted and NOT true! So don’t spend any more time and energy on it! (Easier said than done I know!)

 

[Deanna OgleParticipant]

SavageSoto:

4) How then to do you take those passages? It sounds like you are much less tied down to the Bible than many of my friends.
5) That demonic part is very hard to deal with. It doesn’t help that I have a people-pleaser complex and would rather everyone like me than to deal with conflict like this. But, if I wanted to avoid all that, I should probably just go back to my happy fundie ways, right? I have to keep going.

Thanks for the encouragement. I really do appreciate it.

David:

“Punishment by proxy”, heh, that’s brilliant. They won’t hurt me personally, but they’ll totally sick their god on me!
“You are in a good place. You simply must press on with your own growth.” Thank you. I need to keep this in my mind.

Tana:

Thank god I’m not the only one in Crazytown! It was getting lonely here. It’s funny because I really do have a desire to talk about things, which is why I often like Facebook. But I hate it because the moment I post something that doesn’t line up perfectly with Fundie theology, I end up on the defense from someone accusing me.

I have to also remember that Facebook is not about “winning”. If I don’t answer him, I don’t lose. He doesn’t win. It just is. (But I’ll probably end up ignoring my own advice and responding anyway.)

Thank you for the peace wishes. <3

RandyR2:

Thanks for the article! That was quite interesting. I might have to share. Thanks for encouraging me and for reminding me that I don’t have to have a rebuttal or explain myself to anyone who questions.

Jo,

I tried explaining the religious leader thing, but then he went into the, “no, it was actually the world” thing.

“So he moved on to people who wanted what he had to offer – which was unconditional love and outrageous grace!” Love this quote.

Also, I hadn’t thought about Jesus taking the punishment and absorbing God’s wrath for present stuff. The way I was raised, they always made it sound like it took care of your debt AFTER you died. Until then, you’re still kinda in debt.

That dichotomy line freaks me out. Immense rage/wrath and immense love in one person does not sound nice. I don’t care if it’s perfect anger. That sounds freaky.

Thank you for the encouragement. I’m really glad you all are here to help me get out of my head a little bit and to assure me I’m not losing it.

<3

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