How can you tell if you are an atheist?

[RichardParticipant]

This is a great talk on research done by Daniel Dennett on how to tell if you are an atheist.  He also outlines his study on the number of pastors who are atheists and unable to tell anyone.

[Anonymous]

I watched the entire sermon. I believe.

[Anonymous]

I think he makes a lot of sense, but I still hate when he ridicules the believers. He’s right on about the religious system being full of doubters who are scared shitless to come out. So why the need to mock people who believe in a creator? You once said you listen to your “higher self” I listen to a higher something else, although I really like your expression, because my higher something else seems to exist between my ears. I agree in the danger of religion, but I’m deeply spiritual and like to listen to the trees and the white space between words. I reach out to the mystery that is beyond knowing and yet so close. I don’t want to have to prove it, and I don’t think Dennet is an idiot for not seeing it my way.

[starfielderParticipant]

Wow I really like this “I agree in the danger of religion, but I’m deeply spiritual and like to listen to the trees and the white space between words. I reach out to the mystery that is beyond knowing and yet so close. I don’t want to have to prove it, and I don’t think Dennet is an idiot for not seeing it my way.”

 

[RichardParticipant]

I think Daniel Dennett’s tone would be different if his audience was all believers.  I have even seen Christopher Hitchens dial down his ridicule in different contexts.  I think that atheists are somewhat frustrated with the volume of misinformed ideas directed at them and humor is a way to connect.

There is an idea I like to use when I am being ridiculed for being an atheist.  The person with the least interest has the most power.  Basically that means if I have little interest in the ridicule of other people, then I don’t have to waste energy resenting it or even caring about it.  Part of what gives me little interest in the ridicule of atheism is that I have put in a lot of time thinking about these ideas.  These days I come across little that is new in terms of religious apologetics.  I certainly do my best to listen to see if there is maybe some point I may have missed from previous encounters with a particular idea.  I also don’t connect my value as a person with the ideas I hold.

One time a Christian who I had been dialoging with asked me why I was so good at winning debates.  I told him it was because I wasn’t trying to win the debate.  I was trying to find out what was true.  There is tremendous strength in changing ones mind as soon as there is evidence to do so.

I also find a lot of time to contemplate the discoveries of science and marvel at the smallness of being on an obscure planet among billions of stars in a small galaxy among billions of galaxies.  Life holds many mysteries and I find that to be wonderful.  There are moments when it feels like I connect with a larger consciousness and it is rather euphoric.  It still feels like me, only a larger, more expansive me.  It’s possible that this is a collective consciousness or some type of informational depository.  I have dreams that present with symbols and bizarre situations that often make sense metaphorically to me and I consider to be conversations I have with my subconscious self.  If this is god, there is no evidence it’s the god described in the Bible and the experience doesn’t really tell me anything other than it’s a pleasure to be alive.  It inspires me and helps me live in gratitude.

I observe that dogs dream and a therapy dog that visits my clinic will often sleep and you will see his body do running motions while dreaming.  Sometimes he lets out small barks.  He is empathetic and will clearly comfort people who are hurting emotionally.  There is evidence that animals understand the concepts of fairness and ethics.  I have certainly observed this with horses.

From the evidence it would appear that we share common experiences with the more conscious mammals on the planet.  I still don’t claim to know what this is because until I have sufficient evidence I don’t tend to claim things that I can’t possibly know.

All that religion gave me was fear and shame and this was called “good.”  I understand how religion evolved and it is easy to understand why humans invented religion in the face of emerging consciousness.  It can certainly mitigate certain existential fears we all share.  But in the expanding knowledge base that science offers, we are going to be forced to confront more and more of our assumptions and the resulting magical thinking that comes with that.  It can be a fearful thing to confront the fact that none of us really knows why we are here.  We settle into certain narratives, I think, because they provide us a comfortable place to live.  I think this is a necessary part of growth and just like the body can have growing pains, so does the expansion of our awareness.

[HeleneParticipant]

I feel I can be time-poor (or is that lazy?) and not listen to Dennett and just go with Wayner ! And Richard – word. This bit resounded especially –

“One time a Christian who I had been dialoging with asked me why I was so good at winning debates.  I told him it was because I wasn’t trying to win the debate.  I was trying to find out what was true.  There is tremendous strength in changing ones mind as soon as there is evidence to do so.”

We snide at people who change their minds and don’t appear consistent always, without giving them credit for being able to assess situations and step sideways when needed (though Rupert Murdoch has stepped sideways too many times for me to be congratulatory).

I get the feeling Richard that the dominant culture where you reside is Christian. It’s the opposite where I am, and Christianity is seen as dark ages belief and it would be rare to find someone who openly ‘outs’ themself as Christian. Which is going to be interesting when our uni group go to Indonesia soon and stay in a Muslim village where there has been recent religious conflict between Christians and Muslims. When we are expected to be theist there, how do we define ourselves ? I thought I might just describe myself as a seeker? But then I went through my jewellery box the other day sorting out what to give away, and found the gorgeous engraved cross necklace that my godfather gave me. And it made me ponder all those who had suffered and died for the cause of that cross. End of train of thought – sorry, I went a bit autobiographical there…

[HeleneParticipant]

Alright, I’m stopping being slack and now I’m listening to Dennett talk… (and because I’m a patriot and spotted the ABC logo)

[Peter StanleyParticipant]

As an agnostic theist I wouldn’t want to criticise anything that Dennett said in this talk. As a Brit I was interested in the figures he was using. Something like 75% of people in the UK have not attended church in the last year and some 12% who say they are christians have never been to church. This fits with other surveys that suggest that only about 4% of Brits attend church regularly (and I’m not one of those).

It was a fascinating suggestion that compulsory education on comparisons with different religions would be a key element in moving to a more tolerant world. But this raises the interesting question of how would you find people who could even begin to summarise the multitude of differing religious beliefs.

He is absolutely right in saying that religions have evolved in a world easily maintained in ignorance. He suggests that every religion is going to have to adapt. I’m not convinced that that is true. I don’t think that Christendom (the Christian RELIGION) with all it’s traditions and man made theology will be able to make the necessary changes.

We live in interesting times. We cannot prove that God or gods exist – others cannot prove that God or gods do not exist. I for one am convinced by experience that there is something beyond the five senses. When we consider that civilisation as we know it is little more than 10,000 years old – and we consider how much we have learned in even the last 50 years and how fast change is occurring I just wonder. Those of you who are younger are going to see some interesting developments. I hope to be around for a few years yet!!!

[David HaywardKeymaster]

Thanks Peter. I agree with what you said. I think we are in for interesting times. I wonder what my children will be considering, say, 30 years from now.

[Anonymous]

Richard – thanks for sharing the Dennett video and your personal insights. I don’t identify as an atheist, but I always appreciate what you bring to the table because it makes me THINK!
I found this statement of yours very interesting: “There are moments when it feels like I connect with a larger consciousness and it is rather euphoric.  It still feels like me, only a larger, more expansive me.  It’s possible that this is a collective consciousness or some type of informational depository.”  I have read 2 or 3 accounts of “near death experiences” lately, and so far, they ALL say they felt the euphoria of realizing their spirit is much larger and expansive than could ever be crammed back into their physical body, and they all say they felt connected to all beings (the “collective consciousness” you talked about.)  Also the brain scientist who had a stroke that affected her left brain hemisphere which meant she was much more aware of her right brain hemisphere, spoke of the very same feeling of euphoria, expansiveness, being connected to/one with all beings, etc. 
I find reading about “near death experiences” fascinating to begin with, but even more so since they all seem to experience the same thing. And now here you are – a regular person NOT having a near death experience – saying you have experienced the euphoria related to feeling expansive and part of the collective consciousness! I just find the similarities fascinating. I’m pretty sure Dr. Jill Bolte Taylor (the one who had the stroke) would say the reason you are experiencing the same thing she and those who have had “near death experiences” is because you are utilizing more of your “right brain” than your “left brain.”
I spoke more in depth on Dr. Taylor’s book, My Stroke of Insight, and Dying to Be Me by Anita Moorjani on the “What Are You Reading Lately?” forum
 

[RichardParticipant]

@Jo White  I always appreciate what you bring to the table because it makes me THINK!

Thanks for your words.  That’s really what I think would make a better world.  If people would learn and practice thinking instead of reacting I know we would have a far better quality of life together.

One of the key things that I found in my own experience is these experiences of connection only happen in the absence of fear.  So much of our thinking and belief is around fear, at least mine has been, that I think it’s difficult for these sensory connections to get through.

[Author]

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