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AnonymousThis originally began as a response to Kibret’s post the FB group….the more I typed, the more I realized it was growing….
As someone who left the christian community in small and in large, left church, left Christianity, left the entire conversation involving Jesus or God or the Holy Spirit or anything remotely looking like it….left all of that 5 years ago. I left those conversations FAR behind because there was too much pain, betrayal, and loss.
I lost my family and my 12 year career. I can’t recount the amount of pain I suffered going through the circumstances I endured…I am not saying my pain was the only pain involved, I know many people were hurt both through the circumstances as well as through my disengagement. And I can’t even explain the betrayal I felt at how the other pastors around me handled the situation. I’ve never felt betrayal of that depth and hope I don’t ever again.
However, I walked away from all of that knowing that I was done with it all.
You could tell I couldn’t give two shits about any of it…not because I talked about how much it all hurt me – but precisely the opposite – because of its complete absence from my language at all. My detachment showed itself genuine because of the lack of space it was given in my thinking and my speaking. I thought of it much like any abuser – to continue to talk about it, in either a negative or a positive tone, would be giving it more of my life and it had already taken far too much of my life – so why give it any more?
And in five years, I can honestly say that there was a healing that happened inside of me. I’m not done healing – but I am much healthier than I was five years ago. I am now at a place where I can honestly acknowledge the good in the belief system, the power of the metaphors used and even some of the beauty of the religious side of the community and industry. Now, that doesn’t mean I want to run right out and join First Baptist Church in Fuckmeintheass, TX. (see, I still have some healing to be done…hahaha) but it does mean that I can talk with someone from FBCFMITA, TX and agree with the beauty and power in some of their system. I can speak their language, inherit their metaphors and to a great extent, do it with love and wonder and integrity.
Now, here I am five years down the road and I step into the TLS community.
I can honestly say that if I had come across this place 2 years ago I would have had too much vitriol to be of any use. I would have hated TLS. I would have seen is as walking backwards, as re-engaging in Christianity and I didn’t want a damned thing to do with Christianity. It’s like the atheists that speak about how angry they are at the idea of God. They are angry, not because they are atheists but because they truly aren’t. We can only be hurt by the things we love.
As much as I don’t ever want to say this publicly, even within this forum here, I have to confess something: I hate the church. No…I FUCKING hate the church. Why? Because I love the church. I hate Christianity because I love it. I hate Jesus because I love him. (*sigh, big deep breath….no lightning yet….I shall go on).
Yes, I hate all of those things, some rightly so, some wrongly so. Some of that hatred is justified (the church, christianity) some of it is wrongly misattributing things and I admit that (Jesus). I don’t even know if I believe Jesus is more than a beautiful mythological figure that teaches us great things – to me his historic accuracy is less important than his cosmic identity and metaphorical importance….but that’s a debate for another day.
All of this to say, yes, if I had gone from church-guy to TLS, I would have had to leave. Immediately.
But on the other side of all of it…I’m extremely grateful. When I was ready to “come home,” there was a home I could come to. When I was ready to speak of these things I’ve learned again to love, there has been a community that I can engage without all of the other inherent bullshit.
I plan to hang on to some of my hatred for a while because it makes sense to me. Some of it, at least. Other parts of it, I’m working on giving up. Truly.
I’m just glad I have a community I can process this with. Thank you.
How come I identify with EVERYTHING EVERYBODY says?
I don’t say amen anymore, but I’m shouting whatever the secular equivalent is to this post. Thanks for sharing this because it helps me feel less alone. I’ve always been wary of those who’ve left the church and have only all bad or all good to say about it. When I first left I couldn’t find anything good to say, despite knowing there was good there in most of the people I left behind. I was wrapped in destructive anger that briefly changed who I was. Pain that raw hurts like hell and there’s no easy way to get around it. TLS would have been a terrible place for me to have started when I left the church. Hell, I can’t think of any community that involved believers that would have been safe. Not because I loved them any less than I do now, but because I would have been so toxic they would have left or asked me to leave.
When I initially joined TLS I made a post asking what I was allowed to bring here as an atheist. The immediate response of, “Whatever the hell you wanted,” is what let me know I was in the right place. I don’t sugarcoat things and I’m extremely transparent, but I’m fair and respectful. I think that’s true of most of the people here, regardless of where they stand on religion.
Shae you said, “I plan to hang on to some of my hatred for a while because it makes sense to me.” I hear you loud and clear. There are things that I have no intention of ever not hating. I used to think that freeing myself of all hatred would somehow bring me peace. The reality is, there are some things that come out of religion that are beyond fucked up. There is nothing else to feel about them but hate.
“As much as I don’t ever want to say this publicly, even within this forum here, I have to confess something: I hate the church. No…I FUCKING hate the church. Why? Because I love the church. I hate Christianity because I love it…”
This sums me up well, Shae. I too was hurt and angry and have done quite a bit of processing of the situation and my own personal issues within the last two years. I love God and the faith, but I hate the traditionalism and religiosity, which is part of what keeps me on the fringe of the Church right now. That’s why I said on David’s post for today that I see TLS as a big tent because we’re all at different places on this journey. I still enjoy discussing theology and what has often driven me in ministry is helping the Church to be all she can be for the sake of Christ. So, to that end, I enjoy discussing the things that work and don’t work in the Church. But yes, there’s still some hurt and anger there, and like you Shae, it makes sense to me. In time, I’m sure it will lessen, but that’s not for anybody else to regulate the way some of my church friends would like to do by telling me to forgive. So, I totally hear you and I love what John’s post has opened up among us.
AnonymousDang, one more “fuck” and I think God would’ve rolled you like a doobie and smoked your ass.
AnonymousSG, I think it’s RFO, or True Dat
I step into a church and feel a bit of allergy. I just cannot believe the suit thing, the little piano chords when someone is praying, etc. etc. It strikes me as “phony”.
I wasn’t hurt by it as Shae was. The damage was done in this legalistic mindset that took me years to shake. But when I finally shook it, I found my faith to have been strengthened and I came out better because of it.
I don’t hold on to anger (not saying it’s a bad thing, it’s a step of the grieving process and a healthy one!!) because I wasn’t back-stabbed or betrayed or ridiculed or lost income or was ostracized (insert any awful thing that has happened to many folks on here) but I feel uneasy when I’m in a church, as though it doesn’t make sense to me and I just want to get the heck out.
I stopped attending about oh, ten years ago (though I’d go on and off) and only three or four years ago did I stop feeling guilty about not wanting to attend. After reading “So, you don’t want to go to church anymore” by Jake Olsen, it became clear to me that the church as we know it is a kind of subculture and man-made institution that at best, forges meaningful interaction (creates loving friendships) and at worst, ruins people’s lives. Makes them waste years and yes, humiliates them even.
But I still love God and Christ to pieces. I just finished another Theology course (intro to Systematic Theology). Yeah, studying makes me happy.
If I could have a Masters of Divinity or something I’d be a happy camper. All that said, my feelings are mixed. I wrote a little treatise some time ago in defense of Gay marriage. I got a lot of flak for it by some FB friends that I love. Yep. Oh well.
I guess my final feelings on this thread (and thank you for telling your story Shae and guys) is: be angry. Don’t let it gnaw at your insides. Just let it out. Eventually we will all heal. Time takes care of so much.
Much love to all of you.
Oh and @Wayner : When I left the church, stopped praying and all that as I was confused and stifled about the legalistic thing… I started smoking plenty of “doobies”. It helped. It filled the gaping hole my turning away from God left. Then when I re-discovered God, I no longer needed Cannabis. And also, I started having bad trips, my heart would pound, I would sweat and feel awful.
I still miss Cannabis. As Johnny Cash said once, “I sure love Jesus, but I miss the drugs.”
I know this makes no sense, but Wayner here brought it all back.
LOL.
AnonymousIt made all the sense in the world. Perfectly.
AnonymousI seriously want to drink with you. A lot.
Anonymous@servantgirl – Thank you so much. I think so many of us are more alike – and I don’t mean just in TLS…everywhere. Even IN the church…silently hoping for escape but so afraid of hell.
@wayne-rumsby – I swear one of these days I’m just going to head your way…we have to have a sit down soon. Some way…let’s make it happen.
David, thank you for this space.
Thanks Wayne. RFO it is
Funny you should say that, Shae. I’m considering having my first drink in YEARS when I go to the spa next week. I just feel like I need it, if you know what I mean.
I remember this moment when I was 17 and in my first year at a religious college and we were sitting in one of my friend’s dorm room talking. My Dad was the principle of the religious high school I went to and there was one particular classmate who came to this college from my high school that started to rag on me on how I didn’t really understand what it was like and how I was sheltered and privileged and how my Dad really came down hard on him, etc.. My Dad didn’t really share who he disciplined or who was misbehaving at school with the family so I didn’t really know what he was talking about. He really had no idea of my own personal suffering under the high expectations of being the principle’s son and the amount of criticism I had to endure for decisions I had no knowledge of and the crippling shame I carried because I wasn’t perfect and probably misrepresented god. At this point in my life I had considered suicide at times because the loneliness and emotional pain often lasted for days. I had been trying to do everything the pastors were teaching, including praying and reading my Bible and nothing was working. In fact the harder I tried the worse I felt.
I had been on the verge of simply declaring myself an atheist, not because I knew what an atheist was, but because that was the worst thing you could be and I might as well come clean because god obviously wasn’t listening to me.
So here was this classmate still raking me over the coals. I didn’t have the energy to debate him so I simply said out loud, “Fuck God!” There was sudden silence in the room and I didn’t really feel like elaborating any further. It effectively shut him up and communicated that he didn’t know me at all and I did know what pain was. There was a pretty obvious awkward silence and I just let it sit there. I didn’t give a shit. I felt so light after that and I thought maybe I really am an atheist and maybe Christianity doesn’t know shit. That’s when I stopped going to church at school.
From that experience I know what it is like to be hyper religious and the cost that has on one’s inner life. And anytime I hear people teaching fear, I speak up, because I don’t want anyone to come even close to the feelings I had. It almost took my life. In many ways it did take my life. It caused me to experience years of fairly intense suffering. My religion taught me to self inflict emotional wounds on myself and didn’t give me a way out. I don’t want to lose my anger toward these circumstances because I never want to become complacent about the effect of lies on the quality of life.
…silently hoping for escape but so afraid of hell.
YES. I still consider myself Christian-ish, whatever that means, but I think my entire church life can be summed up as “fake it til you make it.” I lived in fear of doing something that might make God change His (God was always a man in these weird fear-fantasies) mind about me and decide I deserved punishment after all. I still can’t be authentic in church. The only reason I go is for the sake of my family. Not going wouldn’t be about not believing, it would be about not having to be ANY version of fake anymore.
That said, I think I came here at just the right time, too. If I’d tried even a few months before we left our last church, it wouldn’t have gone well. Even with all that I’ve been hesitant about the fact that we do still attend church, as though maybe that’s not acceptable because so many people have well and truly left. But if it’s ok to be an atheist and bring it all to the table, then surely it’s ok to be a church-goer who doesn’t always fit in there but still finds comfort in the liturgy and the sacraments.
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