My second reply to my friend, so far unsent.

[WadeParticipant]

I may have rabbited on rather  a bit longer than I should’ve. :-/ Am considering editing it down before I send it.

I’m troubled by the paragraph about works the church deeply misunderstands, so that’ll likely come out. He’ll likely try to guess which I don’t want to give him any ideas about.

Wade.

Hi Erem,

I apologise for taking so long to reply, but I needed to think about this for a few days. Plus I went away last weekend, and last week at work was busy because my team leader was preparing for four weeks away. So. I understand your desire to really understand what is going on. So I appreciate the concern that you don’t feel like you know. In a way, my own desire to really know something is what is behind what appears to have happened.

First thing to address: I suggested Jeremiah or Ezekiel partly because there were no other suggestions being made at the time, plus we seemed to be alternating new testament and old testament, more-or-less. The reason I missed the first two studies is because I lost track of when you were returning from holidays and then I had a late night at work. Nothing nefarious there.

The second thing is that I was interested in Jeremiah or Ezekiel because I was interested in more than the words under their name. I was interested in exploring why the words were written (or spoken), why they were collected (including how we still have them), what was happening at the times to the prophets in question, what was happening in Israel and Judah, what was happening with Assyria and Babylon and what all this meant for Judaism. Reading just the words we have doesn’t do that – it means we are merely sharing our own existing knowledge based on teachings we received in years gone by. That isn’t learning. There are colloquial words for it, though, that I won’t type. I find this type of exercise boring at best.

I had already begun to read modern thinking about biblical scholarship and I attempted to share some of that when I did turn up. But I was unaware that a study guide had not been chosen and I was relying on memory. It was the sort of thing I was wanting a study guide to say: stuff like that the book of Jeremiah may have had multiple authors – we know he had a scribe called Baruch. And although a large portion was written during the reigns of Kings Josiah and his successors, the work as a whole was edited later, possibly several times, along with Deuteronomy, Joshua, Judges, 1/2 Samuel and 1/2 Kings. It is known that the Babylonian exiles made considerable effort to create a coherent written record. We also don’t know how much earlier than Josiah the core of Deuteronomy was written, but it wasn’t really all that long. And this very short summary merely scratches the surface of the history of Israel and Judah.

However, I was summarily shut down. And now you wonder why I haven’t been back. You may remember it differently, of course. But like I said, I was not prepared and the group was focussed on the merely reading the scripture, anyway.

You expressed concern about my “journey”. Well, I’ve wondered on and off for years why our particular instance of one denomination should have “the answer”. It’s like being in one castle spire amongst thousands of all different shapes and sizes on the castle and insisting that this one is built on the right spot. Except that that is many feet below us… so I’ve done the spiritual thing of climbing down to the base and taken a look at what it’s built on. And what others are built on. And what else is in the foundation that no-one seems to have built on. (I’m a little surprised the analogy didn’t fall apart by this point.)

If you’re interested in what I’ve found, I can refer you to several works. The first is “The Wrong Messiah” by Nick Page. Kirstie currently has my copy if you want to read it when she’s finished. It is a re-telling of the life of Jesus using modern scholarship and story-telling. Another is “Pagan Christianity” by George Barna and Frank Viola. This one asks and answers several big questions about why we do church the way we do. Many people find the answers rather shocking. I can lend you that when I get it back from whom I last lent it to. A third is “Christianity” by Linda Woodhead. I only finished that recently so I can lend that one when you like. It is a small potted history of Christianity by a respected scholar with no religious axe to grind. Also, the Wikipedia articles on the authorship of the Bible are interesting, such as the article about The Deuteronomist. (BTW, the Viola/Barna book also explains why the vast majority of churches cannot teach about these topics. A pity when that’s where the edges of my knowledge are.)

There are other things I’m reading, too. Some of them are outside of Christianity because a view from that distance is often instructive. I’m not trying to be deliberately obscure or even gnostic. But the truth is that some of these works are deeply misunderstood by many church-goers who know only what their church has taught them. I’ve said I’m not telling you so I’m not.

That’s not to say I am completely on my own. Oh no: there are several people and groups I share with about what I am learning. Almost all of whom have done the same type of journey.

So I re-iterate again what I said in a previous message: Christ has told me I can go and look. So I am.

Wade.

[JeffPrideauxParticipant]

Wade, I applaud you writing this letter.  It is important on your (and anyone’s) personal journey to pause at times and write down exactly what you think.  It can be good to stand up to authority at times and state your position.  It can be good to try to maintain old friendships.  It can be good to have dialog with people (even on different journeys) about matters that are very important to you.  One thing for sure, there will probably be a response for whatever you write.  His response will be tailored to address the specific points in your letter.  It may be important to you to hear his specific responses/rebuttals. For example, he may have resources at his disposal that can give stock answers to the books of modern scholarship you mentioned.  You may want to have this conversation with him now, defer it to a later time, or choose to not have it with him at all.  The choice is yours.  There is really no wrong choice.  I only advise to make the choice of what to include in your letter to fit in with where you need to be on your journey.

[David HaywardKeymaster]

You said “Christ has told me I can go and look. So I am.” How can you argue against that?

[WadeParticipant]

David, it’s interesting that that is the one point in my previous email he didn’t address.

Wade.

 

[starfielderParticipant]

I like your email Wade. It’s clear. It’s forthright. It comes across informative and open, yet I hear a really good boundary in what your are sharing and how you are explaining.

Keep us posted.

[shadeParticipant]

i like the attention to detail. there’s not a lot of emotive wandering (not that this is bad, it’s just that people who’re wanting to call you to account won’t really listen). i like the way you leave room for another interpretation without apologizing for your own feelings/interpretations and boundary setting.

are you going to send it? if not, what holds you back right now? do you think that will change? what would change it?

[WadeParticipant]

I did send it, about 24 hours ago. I edited it down a little, mostly to remove the third last paragraph. There hasn’t been a response yet.

Wade.

Hi Erem,

I apologise for taking so long to reply, but I needed to think about this for a few days. Plus I went away last weekend, and last week at work was busy because my team leader was preparing for four weeks away. So.

I understand your desire to really understand what is going on. So I appreciate the concern that you don’t feel like you know.

First thing to address: I suggested Jeremiah or Ezekiel mostly because there were few other suggestions being made at the time, plus we seemed to be alternating new testament and old testament, more-or-less. The reason I missed the first two studies is because I lost track of when you were returning from holidays and then I had a late night at work. Nothing nefarious there.

The second thing is that I was interested in Jeremiah or Ezekiel because I was interested in more than the words under their name. I was interested in exploring why the words were written (or spoken), why they were collected, what was happening at the time to the prophets in question, what was happening in Israel and Judah, and what all this meant for Judaism. Reading just the words we have doesn’t do that – it means we are merely sharing our own existing knowledge based on teachings we received in years gone by. That isn’t learning. There are other words to describe it, but it’s not learning. And I find this type of exercise boring at best.

I had already begun to read modern thinking about biblical scholarship and I attempted to share some of that when I did turn up. But I was unaware that a study guide had not been chosen and so I was relying on memory. It was the sort of thing I was wanting a study guide to say: stuff like that the book of Jeremiah may have had multiple authors. And although a large portion was written during the reigns of Kings Josiah and his successors, the work as a whole was edited later, possibly several times, along with several other books. It is known that the exiles made considerable effort to create a coherent written record. And this very short summary merely scratches the surface of the history of Israel and Judah.

However, I was summarily shut down. And now you wonder why I haven’t been back. You may remember it differently, of course. But like I said, I was not prepared and the group was focussed on merely reading the scripture.

You expressed concern about my “journey”. Well, I’ve wondered on and off for years why our particular instance of one denomination should have “the answer”. It’s like being in one castle spire amongst thousands of all different shapes and sizes on the castle and insisting that this one is built on the right spot. Except that that is many feet below us… so I’ve done the spiritual thing of climbing down to the base and taken a look at what it’s built on. And what some of the other spires are built on. And what else is in the foundation that no-one seems to have built on. (I’m a little surprised the analogy hasn’t fallen apart by this point.)

It is a bit of a confronting exercise. If you’d like a taste of what I’ve been discovering, I can refer you to several works. The first is “The Wrong Messiah” by Nick Page. Kirstie currently has my copy if you want to read it when she’s finished. It is a re-telling of the life of Jesus using modern scholarship and story-telling. Another is “Pagan Christianity” by George Barna and Frank Viola. This one asks and answers several big questions about why we do church the way we do. Many people find the answers rather shocking. I can lend you that when I get it back from whom I last lent it to. A third is “Christianity” by Linda Woodhead. I only finished that recently so I can lend that one when you like. It is a small potted history of Christianity by a respected scholar with no religious axe to grind. Also, the Wikipedia articles on the authorship of the Bible are interesting, such as the article about The Deuteronomist. (BTW, the Viola/Barna book also explains why the vast majority of churches cannot teach about these topics. A pity when that’s where the edges of my knowledge are.)

Amongst other things, this means I don’t ascribe the same sort of authority to scripture that you have been assuming I do. However, that’s not to say I am completely on my own. Oh no: there are several people I have been sharing with about what I am learning and exploring. Almost all of whom have done the same type of journey.

This is not everything, but it is enough. So I re-iterate again what I said in a previous message: Christ has told me to go and look. So I am.

Wade.

[David HaywardKeymaster]

Well I for one can’t wait to see the response.

[WadeParticipant]

It’s been two days and no response. I’m not sure there will be one.

Wade.

 

[Anonymous]

Great letter!

[David HaywardKeymaster]

Yes. Great. There are a couple of people Lisa and I are trying to reconcile with. It is very hard and tedious work which I hope is rewarding. Communicating with clarity is key.

[WadeParticipant]

He responded! Apparantly they’ve been through some sickness, which tends to take a toll on a considerable family with very young children (two under five). Hence the delay.

It was actually a lot nicer than I thought it would be. He seems to understand the difference between extra-biblical research (what I’m doing) and some sort of personal exposition (what they’re doing). His wife, who is technically the leader and has a psychology degree, calls it “a projective exercise”. He also apologised if he had conveyed the impression we could at the origin of the scripture in bible study.

The kicker is the “bible-believing” part. Unsure how to play that one, at the moment!

There is some personal information in his reply, so it will be slightly edited.

Wade.

Hey Wade,
How have you been going? Been pretty sick here; … [personal information elided] …
Sorry it’s taken a while to get back to you – it’s been a hectic few weeks.

I understand that you want to search more, find answers more. And you aren’t the only one – even as you feel you are on this journey without any ECC folk, there are others there who are struggling with the same or similar questions. And when you want to talk about them, I’m more than happy to have that discussion. but I don’t think our Bible Study group is the right place for that – and I’m sorry if we suggested that we’d be spending a term looking at whether the Bible was God’s word or not. We’re there to study the scriptures and learn from them, to see what God has to tell us from them and how we should change our lives accordingly. (Krys thinks of this way of doing things as a projective exercise, if that makes any sense to you.) We are meeting with the understanding that they are God-breathed, and moving on from there. So again – I am sorry that this wasn’t clear up front.

I would like to say that I agree with you when you question why one instance of one denomination should have “the answer”. In case you don’t recall how Krystyna and I found ECC, we moved from our previous church (Caringbah Anglican) because we wanted somewhere closer to home, and closer to the eventual schools our kids would go to. When we were searching Engadine, we also tried out the Anglican church here, as well as the Presbyterian, and the Congregational. We had no thoughts on one denomination being the ‘right’ one then, and still do not now. If I were to define myself as a Christian, it would be “Christian” first, “Protestant” second, and “Evangelical” third. Whatever denomination I currently am part of is merely that – the group of Christians I currently meet with, encourage as I am encouraged, and grow alongside. I see the denomination as “flavour”, and the choice of which denomination not as important as to what they teach.

This means that my concern about you not going to ECC is less about ECC specifically, and more about you attending a bible-believing church. It’s not a statement from me about ECC being the “only right place”, but about meeting with Christians being fundamentally important to maintaining our walk with God.

Anyway, this has (again :p ) become more long-winded than I intended. If you’d like to talk further, I would be happy to. If you wish to do some book-exchanges, I’d be up for that, too. Even if you don’t want to discuss stuff right now, it would still be good to catch up – we’re looking at changing campaign settings soon for our DnD game, and I’ll email you again with more information about that. We really care about you, and want to maintain our friendship with you. So, keep us in the loop, and let us know how you are going.

 

[Author]

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