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AnonymousVery true Gary!
This topic weaves well with David’s present cartoon regarding the conflict between faith and intellect. It seems to me that an absolute faith often produces rock hard rules that are impenetrable to either reason or compassion. However I believe that the type of faith which is always seeking recognizes morality almost instinctively. One thing is clear; if we are to trust the accounts in the gospels…Jesus was most definitely a “rule” breaker.
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This reply was modified 2 years, 1 month ago by
Gary.
AnonymousI like that, Gary. Jesus was a rule breaker.
AnonymousGreat discussion!
I grew up with all kinds of church rules and regs – anything from dancing/drinking/smoking to playing any kind of card game with a regular deck of cards (so we played Rook instead), to going to movies (even Disney movies), to wearing make-up and dress hemlines above the knee – ALL were viewed as sins and strictly forbidden!
Thanks Honeyglow and Ronna for your insights on a woman’s intuition! I am just now beginning to trust my own thoughts and intuition. I was taught by the church NEVER to trust my own thoughts, feelings, or emotions. As “proof” of that, church leaders and my parents always loved to quote Jer. 17:9 which says, “The heart is deceitful above all things,and desperately wicked: who can know it?”
Oh – and remember Dr. Dobson’s book title “Emotions: Can You Trust Them?”
What a bunch of bullshit!!
AnonymousAaaaaaaugh! I’m at the place now in my life that causes me to go in exactly the opposite direction of what I might here in this regard. So, if someone says that a woman’s intuition can’t be trusted, I think to myself, “It’s clearly just the opposite!” When I doubt myself because of external pressures or the risks inherent, I think to myself, “Oh…that’s exactly why I don’t need to doubt; rather, push forward!” And when I hear anything even remotely close to devaluing the voice and wisdom of women – innately, inherently, intuitively – I get super-pissed but then, once calm, say to myself (and others), “That is a lie from the pit of hell. Speak. You know what you’re talking about!”
And you don’t even want to get me started on James Dobson…
Honeyglow great topic! The good vs. bad. The black vs. white. The right vs. wrong. Those were the things I was raised with. I grew up in an extremely legalistic church and as I’ve shared before, at a very young age I knew I was going to Hell because I could not live up to the rules of God as put forth by my church. Honeyglow I love that you were a rebel. I rebelled a few times myself, but the shame that was spoken into me took time to get over. Fast forward to me seeking out my own church as an adult and realizing that those rules were only used keep me in line.
I’m often asked where my moral center comes from if I don’t believe in God. There is apparently an understanding that lack of faith places one at the top of a slide that inevitably leads to immorality and nihilism. That saddens me because the adverse is that people of faith are only moral because of their belief, something I KNOW to be utterly untrue.
I don’t hold to rules, laws, or morals as defined by others. I have an inner voice – be it my conscience or my own personal Jiminy Cricket, that allows me to process what I believe to be moral and what rules are worthy of breaking. When I was a Christian I was expected to believe that homosexuality was a sin and that my LGBTQ friends were living an immoral life. That I chose to believe otherwise was often a major line between myself and some members of my church. The interesting thing is I was in a long term, live in relationship with someone I wasn’t married to, but it was apparently ok to break that rule because we were a heterosexual couple. I laugh about this because the more I’ve studied rules and religions, I’ve learned that these rules are flexible and not so concrete when convenient.
There has to be some rules to maintain order. However when rules are made to police our morality, I’m strongly opposed to them. You can’t govern ones morality; you either are or you aren’t and my line may be much further out from yours. I could talk about this for hours. In fact I have talked about this for hours! lol
AnonymousRonna – I’d love to hear your insights on Dr. Dobson. It’s not that I take pleasure in bad-mouthing people, it’s just that I am still trying to deconstruct what exactly is wrong with the teachings/viewpoints of various Christian leaders/authors/speakers I bought into in the past. But if you’d rather not go there, that’s OK. Really. I will understand.
btw – I really LOVE all the great insights you share on these forums! Thank you!
The other day I was watching a documentary on Netflix called “Beware of Christians” made by 4 college guys. I thought it would be revolutionary and enjoyable but instead was really turned off early on by the “religious” attitudes. One of the guys said “Well we can’t let our hearts guide us because our hearts are deceitful”. And there you have it!!!! (that’s when I turned it off by the way). All my life, in the church, I was told that what my heart felt didn’t matter! Our hearts are the compass to our lives. I fully believe that God directs THROUGH our hearts, but we learned to tune them out and listen to other people pontificate about what was right and wrong and in the church we learned to become robots! Rules robots…. cloistered clones…. zion’s zombies….
Great thread!
Ronna – thanks for the book recommendation…. I’m ordering it on Amazon as we speak….
Jo White…. Dobson’s bullshit – love it! I thought that his books were added as an appendix to the Bible. … ha ha I still have all his books and teaching movies imbedded in my brain….
Gary, I always appreciate your candor and honesty and I hear love and grace coming out of your words. I think God has a bigger view of sexual love than the church does. After all… in the OT the spiritual fathers of our faith had many loves…. I’ve always found that interesting. I don’t really know what I think about anything anymore… except that I really believe it is wrong to impose my views on others… for any reason at any time. It’s between God and the people involved – after all, no one else is present physically in the bedroom, they shouldn’t think they need to judge.
Thanks Ruth Ann. My goal is to always be loving and gracious…though honestly I don’t hit that mark all the time.
Yeah studying sexuality in the bible really is entertaining. It just seems so odd to me that the church has so successfully bamboozled most believers on this issue considering all the bible has to say (and NOT say) about it. Hell even the very 12 tribes and the origin of the nation of Israel was the product of 1 man and his 2 wives and 2 additional lovers. (And according to scripture God was displeased with the jealousy between them) This was actually God’s method of creating His chosen people…lol. Had the society not been so intensely patriarchal I am fully convinced all manner of poly relationships would have been just as common as polygamy and sex concubines were.
AnonymousRuth Anne – good one about Dobson’s stuff being an appendix to the Bible! LOL!
AnonymousJo: Thank you for your kind words. Appreciated. And James Dobson. Yikes. Where to begin – or maybe better said, where does it end?
Bottom line: his theology is very conservative and this is probably where we not only diverge but vehemently part ways. My experience with too many conservatives is that their language and praxis becomes very defensive, argumentative, and “right.”
These words recently written by him:
“Could the American people actually give this radical narcissist four more years at the helm, after his having wrecked the economy, undermined religious liberty, weakened the institution of the family, surrounded himself with Marxists and leftist czars, turned his back on Israel, virtually bankrupt our nation, forced recipients of health insurance to support abortion, declared himself to favor same-sex marriage, weakened our armed forces, covered up the Fast and Furious debacle, and assaulted the principles of free enterprise that made the United States the most envied and prosperous nation on earth?”
Now, regardless of one’s political leaning, this sets my teeth on edge. How are we to have intelligent, generative, compassionate conversations about our beliefs (or our politics) when inane and harmful words are spoken? Such violence. I cannot bear it. Regardless of his opinions (or those of his aligned peers), this kind of rhetoric just hurts us all.
Now…this doesn’t even speak to what he has to say about gender roles, about women, about feminism, about expecting/allowing different behaviors from boys and girls (in the context of parenting).
How am I to speak of what he says/does/believes without perpetrating the very pattern he sets in motion? This I do not know. And this is why I rarely go here…it’s so miry and messy and fraught with landmines.
But clearly, I have an opinion.
AnonymousAnd I’m glad you shared it Ronna. Once again, I appreciate your insights.
I do get what you are saying about the landmines though. How do we have a meaningful conversation about the views of radical conservative church leaders when it involves repeating some of their ugly hate-filled rhetoric? That’s a very good question. I’ll try not to put you on the spot again.
AnonymousYou’re hardly putting me on the spot, Jo. Good questions that cause me to stop and think just a bit more intentionally. I’m grateful.
AnonymousGlad you feel that way Ronna.
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