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R2 1 year, 9 months ago.
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Hello all,
There’s a bit of necessary background but I’ll try to be as concise as possible.
I was born into a fairly strict reformed family in the UK. I am 20 and I’m currently living at university residence away from parents.I am agender. This means I am neither a man or a woman. My pronoun is “they”, not she or he. If you want to ask me anything about my transgender status, feel free to do so but that’s more of a factor than the main issue here. I am out to my mum who after a lot of deliberation decided my identity did not contradict the bible. This was a HUGE step from my perspective.
I am not out to my dad as he previously expressed some very negative opinions about transgender people, and a move a lot of you are probably familiar with; he backed up this prejudice with the bible. Here’s the formula for how this always works out;
“The Bible says this (in my opinion) = GOD SAID IT!= IF YOU DISAGREE WITH ME YOU DISAGREE WITH GOD!= You’re basically always wrong.”
Meaning that any topic of this ilk does not go down well if brought up. Same-sex relationships included.I have a partner who I effectively live with. We’ve been together now for almost three years. I’d like to move out and live with this person at some point. I do not want to marry them. More so, I can’t. I am no man, I am no woman. We don’t fit the “Man and Wife” criteria.
However living with my partner and not being married to them are in my parents minds “not an option.” (Yes, actual quote from an actual conversation.(Also hilarious catch 22 seeing as they’re firmly against same-sex marriage)) Their reason for this is” biblically-based”, so just reference the above formula for how that’s likely to turn out.
I am at the beginning of the rest of my life. I will live as my gender and I will live, unmarried, with my partner, but right now I don’t see how that is going to be possible without creating a massive schism between my parents and myself, which I’m not sure I could take.
I came home last week with a magazine entitles “Cohabitation or Marriage?”, claiming to be able to “convince and persuade” readers that marriage is the only way to go. It seems my parents are not oblivious.What’s more is that as I mentioned in my Meet & Greet post, I’m dealing with some mental issues, and I’m on the waiting list to see a psychiatrist. This is another issue which is almost impossible to talk about. Though at least on this one, my mother’s on my side. She’s a nurse and understands the nature of mental health. My Dad however, is adamant that Christian Counselling is the ONLY path to true healing, because any mental problem is predominantly spiritual (a roundabout way of saying “your fault”) and therefore can only be fixed by being repaired spiritually.
I am staying far away from this method of “healing” and my NHS appointments will be starting soon. It’s going to be difficult to attend them without him noticing. How can I deal with this?
Help, advice, even anyone’s personal experience would be greatly appreciated.
Hi MxMagpie,
Wow…you are dealing with so much right now. I do not have any pat answers for you…but nobody wants those do they? It sounds like you are at the point where you have to decide that the pain of pulling away and creating a schism between you and your parents is worth the joy of being truly yourself and pursuing the life you want for yourself (and getting your needs met). Not an easy decision, especially when you have been raised with heaping doses of guilt and shame anytime you stray from the “party line”. We are here!
AnonymousHi MxMagpie: Welcome and thanks for your honest sharing. I look forward to hopping over to the meet/greet and reading your intro-I am behind on those. Although I am not transgender, I do have very shaming and controlling parents, or rather I did. My father died in 1998 and I have been estranged from my mother since 2007. I am so glad your mother has found the love and emotional intelligence that she is able to see you for the beautiful soul you are and accept you to the extent that she has. I’m sorry your father has not developed those resources within himself. Neither of my parents were able to offer anything remotely akin to unconditional love. Sex was not discussed in my household, I have heard rumblings that both my parents were sexually abused in some way during childhood, but who knows. My mother is also a nurse but was aghast and very shaming when she found out I became sexually active at 18 while going away to college. I have to say that my parents marinated me in shame, sexual shame and just shame in general. I have come to realize that there was no way I could ever really please them, and their shame really was all about them, and not me. It was just convenient for them to project their shame onto me, and they justified it and their mistreatment of me by labeling me ‘the strong one.’
Anyway, I chose not to live with my first husband prior to marriage at age 27 b/c I didn’t want to upset my parents. It was a hellish 3 year marriage that could have been prevented I now believe if we had lived together first. It would have become apparent we were not right for each other. In fact he turned out to be a big narcissistic control freak much like my mother. I did live with my second husband prior to marriage; it was easy to keep from my parents most of the time b/c I live 500 miles away. We have been happily together since 1997. I met him b/c I listened to myself even if my choices didn’t seem to make sense to others at the time.
I became aware that I had to choose between having a phony good relationship with my parents (peace at any price) or an honest bad one. For a long time I chose the former. And that was OK. I made the decision that was easiest and right for me. Over time this situation became unsustainable with my family making endless demands of me w/o ever giving much in return. I snapped and cut off contact with my mother and sister. This is never a decision that should be made in haste or taken lightly; it caused me a lot of guilt. Sometimes I wish I would have tried longer or harder to establish boundaries with them but after a lifetime of not being seen, heard, or appreciated for who I was I wasn’t up to trying. There comes a point in time where you have to put yourself first and live your life on your own terms and give yourself the unconditional love and approval you did not get from your parents, society, whoever. It took me 30-40 years to do this. I could not do it in my 20’s. That doesn’t mean you can’t, I’m just saying it took me longer. The decisions you make may also be affected by whether or not you are financially dependent on your parents right now, and other practical considertions.
So this has just been some of my personal experience for what it’s worth to you. I hope things go OK with the psychiatrist, my parents were never supportive of my counseling career, they hate all things psychology, but you’re right it’s probably for the best you stay away from ‘christian’ counseling given their history of non-support of the LGBT community. Sometimes I had to try different practitioners or modalities of healing until I found what and who was best for me.
I wish you and your partner peace, love, and nothing but the best.
MxMagpie…No advice here, only my heart going out to yours.
I could echo many of roseyaire’s words above. I too was steeped in shame.
I was abused sexually as a little child, and was so young I didn’t even know what had happened to me. Then when I did figure it out (I was 16) and told my parents, they told me I was lying. They had not told me anything about sex, but then they were always speaking like it was something that automatically sends you to hell unless you’re married, so I set out to answer my own questions (dictionary and other reference books) When my mother decided that I should know about it, she came to me and we had a very uncomfortable talk in which she told me nothing in detail, and in fact she lied to me about sex. Her thinking that I wouldn’t know any better made me realize WHY she didn’t believe me when I told her I was molested as a little girl..but it didn’t hurt any less that she lied and disregarded my telling her I was abused. There was so much guilt laid upon myself and my siblings that at times I wished I’d never been born, since I was led to believe that my very existence was abominable unless I was changed by christ, and that wasn’t something I ever felt at all. I begged for it. Pleaded for him to save me, change me, and make me “pure” before God…and every time I made a mistake, or gave into a weakness..I felt like I’d fallen to the bottom of a great cliff face I’d been scaling. So impossible to live by those kinds of standards.
“ GOD SAID IT!= IF YOU DISAGREE WITH ME YOU DISAGREE WITH GOD!”
That’s precisely mindset/view of the Bible that I was brought up under. It’s still the way my parents in law think, and I’m kind of living a lie before them at the moment since they are unaware that my journey has led me to a place of not knowing what I believe. And, I’m terrified to tell them, but I must if I’m to be free.
Thank you everyone, your respective personal stories are appreciated so much, and are very enlightening. They’re pretty hard to respond to though, sorry I think it’s a by-product of being new heh.
pamwerner: No, not an easy decision for anyone to make, and judging from other’s posts on here, I’m not alone in. Some others are in the same place and I appreciate this community so much. Thank you
roseyaire: I’m so sorry you had such negative experiences. Knowing what you went through with your parents was really inspiring for me though, and the fact that it took you longer helps take the pressure off me to make immediate decisions, which is helpful. Also your first experience with marriage is an example of one of the first things that got me thinking that the “no sex before marriage” buisness” was a bad idea. Because as a result of this rule, so many people get married young, and if the husband/wife turns out to be abusive or just wrong, well that’s potentially your whole life doomed to suffering, which I can’t believe God would ever want for us. I am glad you managed to break out of it and that you’re here. Thank you for your advice too, I think it may be better once I’m out of university, I’ve only got a year left. So I’ll have to test the waters as I go I think.
moxierocks: Your experience regarding sexual abuse was awful, though sadly not uncommon. Rape and sexual abuse victims are too commonly silenced. The fact that your parents told you you were lying; I don’t even have words. I’m just sorry for their response. You never deserved to feel at fault and guilty. You’re not at fault and your experiences should have been met with nothing but encouragement and support. Which I hope you will find/are finding here
I’ve never once spoken to my parents about sex, I think they assumed school would teach my all I needed to know, but then I think that’s the standard English take on things… I don’t know anyone personally who had “that talk”.
AnonymousHey MXMagpie. Thanks so much for sharing your life here with us. I think it is obvious that you are among friends here. I want to share a little with you from my own experience as an asshole father.
“I am not out to my dad as he previously expressed some very negative opinions about transgender people, and a move a lot of you are probably familiar with; he backed up this prejudice with the bible. Here’s the formula for how this always works out;
“The Bible says this (in my opinion) = GOD SAID IT!= IF YOU DISAGREE WITH ME YOU DISAGREE WITH GOD!= You’re basically always wrong.”My son came out to me and my wife about 5 years ago (he was 19), and the truth is, we kind of knew something was up before this happened. Now I don’t say this to equate my son’s orientation to yours or minimize at all what you are going through.
I think your father’s problem is that he really does love you a lot and can’t keep his fucking mouth shut. He does not understand what you have been going through, and thinks maybe he can bully you through this “stage.”
He is afraid. He sees what you are going through and wants to believe that his child will somehow get through this “rough spot” and get over it, and just become that perfect little girl or boy again. Please tell me if I am overstepping here. I certainly cannot make claims about what he is really going through based on a few words, but he sounds a lot like me 6 years ago.
When I noticed what my son was going through I began to change a bit. There he was doing his best to live up to all I wanted from him and he just looked so damn unhappy. Not one successful relationship with a girl to speak of. I knew he had this secret life that he was living as a teenager, and was afraid for him at times. Since he hadn’t come out to me at that point, I thought maybe if I keep letting him know how much I disagree with homosexuality he will get past this and start acting more heterosexual.
Yeah, I was pretty stupid.
There I wasin my late 30s, early 40s and I had so much to learn. All of this to say, don’t disown your parents. Be yourself in front of them. Just do it. Don’t be scared. You are 20. Remember that inside of your Dad is this guy that used to pick you up and make you laugh. And he loves you and wants the best for you, and he is scared to death for you, but he needs to be educated on the realities of the world. You might play a part in that education and you might not. He may never stray from his Biblical quotations and mean words, but somehow he still loves you.My wife and I recently had dinner with my son (he’s 24 now) and his boyfriend (manfriend?) and I was so happy to see him sitting next to this really nice guy, in love and just as happy as can be. I was so happy to be able to give him my happiness for him. Hang in there – you have probably heard this before, but it get’s better.
@Jaymar – Thankyou! It’s really good to get a response from another father, gives me an insight I wouldn’t have otherwise had (See, isn’t this forum great? :P). Also you never overstepped at all, everything you said was helpful. It makes sense what you said, the mentality that if he remains in denial for long enough, eventually the problem will fade away and not have to be dealt with. Maybe the day he realizes I’m not fading out will be the one when things come to the surface.
I know my dad loves me, we actually have a really great relationship. We work in very similar ways and are actually quite similar people all round. We understand each other without having to say much specifically, and most of the time when he’s arguing with me on these things, I can tell he’s in two minds about it. In previous conversations he has indicated an internal dichotomy between what his theological education tells him is true and what his heart and gut feelings are. The problem is that most of the time, the theology wins, but because of his internal troubles he is more forceful and shout-y about his opinions to me, as if to re-enforce them in his own mind. I hope that makes sense. Basically this creates an almost impenetrable shell when these arguments arise.
Although I’m young I get the impression he does listen to what I say and occasionally things have gotten through to him. I told him once that only Jesus knew everything and had 100% certainty. We are humans and as we’re not perfect, we never have that luxury. That made him go quiet for a while. Maybe that might have planted a seed of anti-dogmatism, who knows.
Howdy MxMagpie! Sorry, I am really behind in keeping up around here…
I can’t give advice, but I can at least share some experience:
To start, copy and paste some of Rosey’s stuff here – the shaming parents parts. My parents were almost 40 when I came along unexpectedly, so that only added a level of distance, and my mother, especially, over-spiritualizes everything, and loves being a martyr. She insists I call her “Mother.” They are 89 now and talk to me the same way they did when I was 17, or 7. I call them every few weeks, put the phone on speakerphone and mute, and let them preach for 45 minutes and tell me all the minute details of my older brother’s life (he’s a preacher, and happens to be pastor of the church I grew up in, where my parents have gone for 60+ years) while I cook or surf the web. Occasionally I unmute it and grunt or say Oh, huh, interesting, etc. It’s been like that the 30 years I have been an adult, whether I lived in the same town or far away, as I have been the last 13 years. It’s weird.
I had to learn awhile back to quit visiting at Thanksgiving and Christmas, especially for my kids’ sakes, and make visits short and sweet. It’s going on 2 years since my last trip there. I don’t mention church (or that we don’t go anymore), our tattoos, what wines we like, or that my eldest daughter is again living with a guy, or that it’s a mixed race relationship, or that my youngest daughter dates a …. Catholic, and goes to mass. I slipped and mentioned that I was playing in a rock band at the beach as well as at church (when I was still in church). Mistake. So, I ask how the weather is. Because that is the only way to keep the peace, not talking about who I actually am or what I do, and I really have no interest in yelling matches or drama. I had to ditch my brothers and their families from Facebook, because they were giving my parents TMI. And the inevitble sermon would follow (“we raised you better than that – you don’t really drink beer, do you? Oh, Randy!” Seriously).I’m a father also, of 2 girls, soon to be 19 and 22. I have been determined to not drive any wedges between us, and so far we have pretty good relationships. They have both helped me grow in different ways. :-). I was raised in a fundamentalist family in an area where there were all european immigrants. I was taught that Protestants good, Catholics bad. I never saw an african-american or latino person until I went to college, except on TV. Racial humor and such were the norm. My father even gave me a joke book for my 12th birthday – on one side it was all Polish jokes, you flip it over and it was all Italian jokes. It’s still the same why in that area. The “other” is scary, or bad, or to be made fun of. It wasn’t until I graduated college and started travelling around the country, and moving around it, that I started dropping all those prejudices. Travelling and meeting people is the fastest way to see people for who they are. I have gay friends and relatives, and don’t think much of it, except when some religious idiot speaks out against them – I know how it hurts them.
I know God has a sense of humor, because my youngest girl has been dating a Catholic, from Poland, for 3 years now, she plays bass guitar in their youth group and goes to mass; and my eldest daughter lives with a guy, and he’s got a really, really good tan. ;-). We all get along – we have them each over for dinner once a week, and I am thankful for those evenings.
I hope your folks will start to open up more, but don’t be surprised if your dad never comes around, or it takes a long time. Can you move out on your own for a bit? Just being able to put some space between you and your folks might help. It can take some time to realize that you don’t exist to make your parents happy. You gotta live your life, and hopefully at some point they can get on board. Many can’t.
Wish you the best.
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