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After listening to the hang out on Monday night with Pam Werner and Flight from Mars Hill I am left with some questions.
Why do we stay?
Why did we go looking there in the first place?
What was it we were looking for that lead us to want to belong to THAT.
Christine Murietta, on her blog mentions trauma reactions 1. fight 2. flight 3. Freeze 4. Submit 5. Attach. You can read more about it here : http://christinemarietta.com/category/trauma
So, what’s up with those of us who attach to this kind of community? What didn’t we see sooner? And what is there to learn about ourselves to not go down this road again?
A friend of mine mentioned today that she found herself in a marriage where she was not respected and it was like her childhood home. I think we sometimes find ourselves in relationships that feel familiar and comfortable not because they are safe or good for us but because they are the patterns that feel familiar. I think church can be that way. We grow up with a set of assumptions about who we are based upon what we’ve been told and it isn’t until we learn to hear our own voices that we grow into who we are for ourselves. If we need other voices to help us find our way, why wouldn’t you end up in a place where people can act like your parents?
i think we do need other voices to help us found our way. To help us hear ourselves. We need to be heard and validated in our own experience in order to learn to hear our own voices. Many of us have had church experiences that were about drowning out our voices. I remember being told my perspective was wrong because it did not match the proper interpretation of Scripture. My voice was wrong. Don’t listen to it – you will be led astray.
Turns out we are meant to hear and be heard.
I feel silly saying we are witnessing and experiencing a new paradigm. But it certainly is for many of us. Our understanding of who we are and who we might be has shifted and we have new freedom to experience that in community that does not preload an agenda.
i think we find and stay in community because it meets needs we have. We mature in community when we can hear and be heard. If you are not heard and you cannot listen it is no longer community.
AnonymousOff the Map nailed it by saying,“I think we sometimes find ourselves in relationships that feel familiar and comfortable not because they are safe or good for us but because they are the patterns that feel familiar.”
We seek out the same kind of dysfunctional/abusive churches, marriage partners, relationships, etc. not because we don’t know on some deep level that they are not good for us, but because the dynamics are what we are used to, so we just naturally gravitate towards what feels comfortable at the time.
I think the best way to keep ourselves from going down this road again is to do exactly what you are doing. We have to ask ourselves questions like: Why was I vulnerable to that situation or person? What drew me in? What dysfunctional/abusive characteristics did I identify with?, What red flags did I ignore? Why did I ignore them? What can I do next time to NOT go down this same road?
And we educate ourselves. By reading books, by talking with other people who are extricating themselves from similar circumstances and bouncing feelings, ideas and insights off one another – which is exactly what we do here at TLS!
I think God made us with a hunger for connecting with people through community, and that is why we crave it so much. Unfortunately, the community He envisioned for us is NOT what the institutional church has turned out to be. The church promises us a lot of cool sounding stuff and provides us with instant friends and activities. But those things don’t come without strings attached to them, but by the time we realize that, we are already caught up in the acceptance of new friends and the incredible sense of belonging, purpose and ministry. And bottom line: those things are hard to walk away from! It feels like an actual death. It IS the death of what should have been… but wasn’t.
For some of us, it only takes one bad experience like that for us to not fall into that same kind of situation again. For others (like me – because I was raised and groomed in it), it can take several times. But eventually we figure out – and we REMEMBER (when we are tempted to go down that same path), that our own emotional/spiritual health and freedom is far more significant and rewarding than whatever superficial crap the church offers us (which always comes with strings attached, so it is only temporary anyway!)
AnonymousI’ve noticed I’ve developed a kind of allergic response to sheep shit. If I even catch a whiff of sheep fart, I’m outta there.
We’re empty nesters, semiretired (which is shorter than trying to explain that we were urban missionaries, but we’ve gone wobbly) and we’ve gone from downtown Toronto, to Rural (why the hell would anyone in there right rind move here). We want to connect with this community (general). One of the obvious ways to do that is through church. we’ve looked into a few. OMG, my allergies went off big time.
We’ve decided instead to connect with the art community instead. My wife went over to the neighbours barn and signed up for a stained glass course. I joined a woodworkers group. There seems to be a growing art community up here so we’ve just chosen to connect there. We want to build a studio/woodworking shop on our property, our own little church, a place to love our neighbours.
Wayne, One of the things that helped lead me out of church was the realization that my only real hobby was church. I wanted more… I had always wanted to run so I joined a running group, I wanted to learn how to make silver jewelry and bowls and joined a couple of different metal smithing groups (bronze and silver) … and I was criticized for doing those things instead of the next church class on “whatever.” I joined up with a contemplative center and participated in some guided silence…
And I love all these things! Wish there was a way to post pictures easily so we could share…
I’m curious to know within myself how to recognize the sheep farts and sheep shit before I am mired in it. And what the heck am I not paying attention to that makes me ignore the whiff…
@Off the map and @Jo White, I’d love to come up with a simple guide of questions to ask ourselves or for others to ask themselves to help listen to the inner voice that says, “WARNING! SHEEP SHIT!”
Ok, maybe it wouldn’t be those words but what questions would help us notice the red flags?
I think we have the makings of another Hangout.
How about the Hang Out be a panel with all of us contributing?
I think a lot of it is our human nature for us to want to be part of something bigger than ourselves. Our lives have to have meaning and purpose and destiny. A sense of community and family with a common goal and calling. And, inside we all want to feel that there is something more than this life we live, that we live on after we die in some way – the search of eternal life. The fact that there are hundreds of religions and beliefs throughout all of history, back to ancient mythology (I’m not really sure if there is any difference in ancient mythology and modern religion but that’s a different topic), may show us it’s just part of our human nature to want more.
And, maybe at more of a basic level, it feels good to be part of a church “family”, with the “friends” and great community atmosphere. Like many of us have discovered, it’s only after you leave that you realize how toxic some of those relationships were and how very quickly all those “friends” are suddenly not.
I agree Starfielder – I often ask myself why I didn’t see sooner
yes @starfielder good idea!
Anonymous“A sense of community and family with a common goal and calling.”
Is this not what we’re up to here?
At this point this group is really just conversation, as soon as we hoist a flag over a construct, then we’re phukt.
AnonymousStar & David – great idea about having a “Warning: Sheep Shit” Hang Out panel!!!
Man, I’ve been to so many churches, I couldn’t even begin to count them. I had such an arrogant faith as a young man, I was able to go to a Baptist church and I found other guys with arrogant faiths who turned me on to staunch Calvinism and I ate it up. Like arrogance, like fellows, like friends. It’s a mindset. Then we all moved on to other places somehow and I could never find the same thing ANYWHERE. What the eff was I going to do with this arrogance I had now that there was no one to reinforce it.
Well, over time, I mellowed out of course because of the newer essense of God that I was beginning to become exposed to thru AA and such. My faith mellowed and believe me, life had thoroughly kicked my arse. I was a database admin in the silicon valley when it collapsed with tons of money, etc. I never needed God. Why would I? Everything was peachy. Then it and my career all went away. Now I mostly associated with IT people then and the discipline is mired with math majors/scientists/engineers…many atheists, so no real talk of God. I don’t push my God on anyone who doesn’t wanna hear about Him. (I never saw Jesus get in anyone’s face about himself…Well maybe the apostles sometimes but He was close to them and not about Him, about spiritual stuff they didn’t comprehend.)
I lost everything. The house near Santa Cruz, the Harley, The trailer, The Mustang, The truck, the wife…on and on. I learned that for me, nunna that stuff means anything. So everything was wiped away and I found my faith again but as I said it had mellowed with life kicking my ass in so many ways, it was no longer arrogant. I had learned a bit of humility.
Now it seems I’ve digressed miles here but it’s all kinda related. My faith was active again but with no people in it and I was sour on Organized Religion for many reasons. But I’d have these people come up to me and say ‘Oh, but you haven’t been to my church…etc.’ I went to a number of them on this basis to no avail. I hate to think that things might be this way but church has become to me like liver. I’d always told people I hate friggin’ liver and they’d give me ‘Oh but you haven’t had MY liver.’ I’d try it and gag every time. I hate the stuff and no addition of salt, seasonings, condiments, ways of cooking it will EVER make it palatable to me PERIOD! And church seems to be the same and it just makes me wanna cry, the futility. I miss people with whom I have identity. I miss the Lord’s Supper. I miss hearing an uncompromising preacher of the gospel who doesn’t water it down…I miss church that is dedicated to Jesus…I mean truly dedicated and behaving like the first century Christians. What we have left is so phucking dissipated.
For me, it’s not a matter of sheep shit or sheep farts…that’s the people and people will always be sheep and where there are sheep, there is shit.. But their shepherds absolutely suck and they should have to go and rake up all that shit after the meeting. They caused it, they should clean it up. I just feel like I’m done and I miss honest people there too…people who’ve been led to be honest, who must be honest. If church was more like AA, I’d go. As a drunk, I am compelled to be rigorously honest…I was told I’d have to be or I might drink and I don’t want that nightmare to start again. I wish there was something compelling along similar lines within the church like if you’re not honest, you might steal or fight or beat people weaker than you, or lapse into child molestation or something horrible anything for the first time or a return to it. Nothing compells the church body. The ministers/pastors don’t have to be and therefore, the sheep aren’t being led to be honest. We can all keep going thru this stupid little churchly show every Sunday…IT SUCKS!! (BTW, I’m wearin’ jeans and a T-shirt, I don’t give a fig what those ‘church ladies’ think.)
@toddmtn, WOW this is a rockin’ story! I appreciate your honesty. I for one have found al-anon to be a game changer… you’re so right… “I miss honest people there too…people who’ve been led to be honest, who must be honest. If church was more like AA, I’d go. “
Well…that was a synopsis. I coulda REALLY digressed but I spared y’all. I gotta be honest b/c I could wind up driving and killing someone and that would shatter me. It’s been 24 years for me and my God and no liquor, a long time between drinks but I’m one drink away from doing it all again so I gotta be honest. I have an inconceivably compelling incentive. And if we don’t confess our sins and weaknesses to each other, those we trust, the extreme few, those WE deem to be trustworthy…how the hell will anyone know what to pray for us for? I’m still riddled with shortcomings and I’m aware of more with each day but they’re dealable…I need help and prayer so I’ve gotta be honest. I just patiently wait for God to remove them now. Simple as that and thanx…
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