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Wade 1 year, 7 months ago.
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I was reading over the post What does faith mean to me? and I want to pick up on some comments by @amarisjane and @shift about the history of the church.
For me I think a lot of what is making me want to distance myself from the church is its history. Here where I live in western Canada they were a big part of the residential schools that forcefully took Native Americans from their families to educate them in a Christian system. There were so many abuses there its just unbelievable.
I’ve recently switched back to a Bible with no commentary so I just read the words as they are. Of course I’m still seeing translation and only the recordings of Jesus that church fathers decided were worthy but it is as close as I can get with out learning Greek or Hebrew.
How do you deal with what people have done in the name of Christianity?
What would a faith centred on Jesus look like?
AnonymousHey @cowboyjunkey
Yeah interesting topic importan points you raise.
And in the light of what you say with the freedom for religious expression in N America. Coming form a place of persecution in Europe, the Mayflower and then not wanting to exepreince the same in a brave new world. Problem – it works if you are in power. And if you are write male and protestant you have the freedom. If you are female, Catholic, Native American, Muslim, etc it can be a different story altogether.
Think also about the witchhunts in the middel ages in the UK, or what currently is in the headlines here with abuses of priests and nuns. http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/home-news/the-catholic-church-acted-on-obrien-within-a-week-we-have-been-waiting-for-decades-to-get-justice.20456823
What can be done about this? Well I think first of all bering in mind what Jesus said about let those without sin cast the firat stone. Unless we take a good look at ourselves then what right have we to point the finger at others. Then what about justice. Is there anythign we can to to be part of that in finding release for the opressed.
And with coming to bible for ourselves – doing whatever we can to minimise reading into the bible what we want to be there. But letting the bible read out into us ever when it hurts and allow it along with God working in ourconciences to be transformative. We can oly do thayt for ourselves – we can’t control others. I’m going with Micael Jackson;s Man in the Mirror on this one. “If you want to make the world a better place take a look at yourself and make that change”.
Cowboyjunkey, I’m currently reading “Why Priests” by Gary Wills. It’s been eye opener for sure. I have no idea what a “What would a faith centered on Jesus look like?” Seems like some very smart people worked really hard to come up with a way to follow Jesus that is in direct contradiction to what he talked about.. or what the bible says he talked about… if you find out… post it… I’m curious…
Two separate questions – 1. How do you deal with what people have done in the name of Christianity?
Some would say that I have a heretical view of the Bible. But what if the Old Testament was the calling of one nation by God to be His people? What if the early chapters of Genesis are myth and symbolism (in the way that C S Lewis and J R R Tolkein understood those words) and that God knew that mankind would go their own way without the guidance of the Holy Spirit (which fits with Jesus being described as the redeemer before Creation – and the idea of original sin being a misguided belief of men). Consider then that Jesus came to do away with the Temple worship and the Pharisees and that within some 300 years this had been replaced by another form of temple worship led by what became the Catholic church. Then consider that God in his wisdom allowed that to happen so that mankind would eventually learn that they can do nothing without the guidance of the Holy Spirit.
This is a view I held a few years ago – I’m not sure how much it has changed.
Could this explain the Crusades to some extent?
It seems to me that the majority of members here come from what they would consider an abusive evangelical background. I am a Brit who has never been involved with an evangelical church. I do have an interest in history and I have an awareness of the work done by evangelicals (and especially the Salvation Army) in London in the 1800’s, caring for the destitute and setting up some of the early hospitals with their primitive facilities. The preaching was very much hell, fire and brimstone and the medical staff felt a compulsion to be in chapel every morning at 8am – sometimes leaving patients until after prayers.
Could it be that life is a training ground? Could it be that history is full of the stories of the rise and fall of empires for a purpose? Could it be that God in his wisdom has allowed the rise and fall of denominations for a purpose?
Second question: What would a faith centred on Jesus look like?
One view that doesn’t seem to be that uncommon could be summed up as seeing Jesus as their boyfriend.
Others see Jesus as the intermediary between mankind and the ‘grandfather in the sky’.
Personally my faith is not centred on Jesus but on Father (I really don’t make any real distinction between Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit). I realise that is a view that is not particularly common but it does seem to be something worth thinking about.
Food for thought?
“Personally my faith is not centred on Jesus but on Father (I really don’t make any real distinction between Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit).”
I really like this Pete. Seeing the distinctions between the 3 used to be the only way I could rationalize much of the OT. In a sense Jesus was the cover of protection from God’s true nature which appeared to be one of wrath. This way I could somehow set the monster aside and be safe from him. Eventually as I too began to reject the dichotomy between the two I realized I had a profound difficulty with scripture. In essence ..I concluded I could no longer hold it to be perfect and/or inerrant. Jesus statements about He and the Father being one could not be set aside. Eventually when I pondered Jesus words that He never desired bloodshed in the first place…I came to realize that those parts of scripture that reveal a God contrary to Jesus revelation were man’s failures at attempting to describe God.
Something that catches my attention is talk about God allowing this or that bad thing for whatever reason. It makes me think that maybe “God” allows everything because he does not exist, or if he or “it” does not care.
What would faith centered on Jesus look like? I think that would depend on what depiction of Jesus you consider. The one in the gospels? The one in the Pauline epistles? Or the one in the book of Revelation? We have to consider the earthly Jesus, the ascended Jesus and the returning judging Jesus. I think every believer has their very own personal concept of Jesus in their mind. It’s partly this diversity that causes so much division and conflict. But I guess God allows that for some reason because he allows almost everything so to speak.
What would a faith centred on Jesus look like?
That’s a really interesting question. I got a partial answer when I found a book called “Jesus Through Pagan Eyes”. Amongst many other things, it points out how a lot of Jesus’ teachings and practices line-up with a lot of Pagan thinking. It also points out how the Apostle Paul never knew the earthly Jesus before his crucifixion. This must have influenced his ministry because the other eleven did know that Jesus.
We also know that the church became structured sometime before 300AD and that this was boosted considerably by the Emperor Constantine becoming Christian. I thought for the longest time that this had been good for the church. Now I’m not so sure. I’m waiting for my copy of “Pagan Christianity” for another viewpoint.
There’s lots to think about there. History does repeat itself over and over and over again. Empires rise and and fall and I agree that that is what is happening with denominations now. Sometimes I’ve read about things where they talk of the change happening over centuries and you realize that there were people who lived their entire life through the change but probably didn’t really see it as change.
Its tough reading about all that was done but there are also many stories of great things done in Christianity (as mentioned above). I guess the main thing is to look at what I am doing now and do the best I can to be on the great side and not the shameful side.
Regarding Jesus I’d fit more in the seeing him as my friend concept. I’d see him as someone to hang out with frequently and likely share many meals over. As I think was mentioned in the previous post just because all kinds of evil has come from people professing his name it doesn’t mean what he said isn’t worth looking at.
Constantine seems to have been one of the greatest influences on the Church. His importance should never be underestimated. Had the Roman Empire not adopted Christianity who knows if the Church would even be known of today. I would imagine that if christianity had grown by love and good deeds rather than by political might it would have become something quite different than it is today. But then again, it may have become a non entity or extinct. So did God use the Roman Empire to build his church? That does not look very supernatural or moral to me. Hmm.
AnonymousThat’s some interesting points you rais about Jesus and dthe depiction accorting to the gospels, the epistles and revelation. And of people saying God allos things leading you to believe that either God does not exist or if he does he doesn’t care.
I thinn with the first point – yes, we can see a different Jesus if we come with our 21st centurey western view to scripture as you say in different parts of scripture. I wonder however if in the original context if that ouwld be so. It seems to me that when Jesus entered Jeusalem on palsm Sunday, that he was welcomed as a hero, a conqueror along the lines of David. If you were a Jew and had the history of your people woudn’t you be expecting a leader to overthrow the opressive Roman dominion as David had conquered enemies in the past? It then isn’t too much of a jump to think of Jesus in revelation to me as being that kind of conqueror.
I think a problem we face is in the depiction and image we have of Jesus so often portrayed by the church. The “gentle Jesus meek and mild”. I guess Jesus means different things to different people but what I see is yes the loving kindness of him but also a warrior king.
I know myslef, if people wer to describe me then I there would be a diffent description fomr my mother, fomr my friends, form my work collegues, fomr my neighbours, fomr the guy who is the local shopkeeper etc. When I think of that, I don’t have a problem with reading a differnet Jesus in the gospels, the epistles and Revelation.
As fo God not being present or not caring if he is. Yeah important question and I think it is one that a lot of people are passionate about. I know for example Richard Dawkins looks at the old testament and sees God as someone condoning gneocide. Christopher Hitchins thought simlarly and if as with Abrham God asked him to sacrifice his son that he would tell him to fuck off! Seems to me the psalms are full of appeals to God, even being angry with him at injustices that happen. I can’t claim to undertand why for example a child should be born with a disability which means they have to live in some kind of pain all their lives and thier parents and familt suffer. Doesn’t quite match with a loving God to me! It’s a tough one!
A warrior king certainly fits in the context of Bronze/Iron Age people writing of their desired needs. If the book of Revelation is speaking of future things then we haven’t progressed much. It sounds like the same old ways of solving problems by using violence. I would think that an all mighty loving Father would act in a fatherly manner towards his children using wisdom and grace to solve humanity’s issues. Mass battles and hellfire sounds crudely human rather than Divine. If the bible in all its many parts portrays the character of Jesus then it is confusing to me and many others. Don’t get me wrong, Jesus/God has been my closest friend and companion for many years so his seeming absence now is something that is the cause of much grieving. I did not choose this desert experience but the reality that comes with critical thinking brings an awareness that cannot be denied. Honesty compels me to move forward in my convictions. But mostly I am in a place called “I don’t know”.
Anonymous@Hugh Yeah I hear ya about the the violence and yup this is somethign Dawkins and Hitchins would pick up on too – the goenocied and infanticide that I mentieond earlier.
But what if you are opressed and the history of your people has been such that they have been taken away, made slaves wome raped, been tortured, humiliated, exiled a long way away fomr home? Love, grace, wisdom istn’ going to stop an opressor unless that opressor is willing to reason, stop the opression and come to a point of loving. Revalation has a lot of imigary and it was written to the early church that was under the jackboot of creul Roman opression. It was an encouragement to keep going and a challenge to not give up among other things.
Let’s say you were in the UK in the late 40’s and you were facing the very real possibility of German invasion. Would you do as Neville Chambelain did and try to reason. I guess you would, but if that reasoning doesn’t work then woudn’t you as he did go to war? And then wouldn’t you appreciate having a figure like Winston Churhill come along to lift your morale and say yes we can fight?
When I se revelation I see a fight. But I also see a lot of symbology. I understand this to be a fight ultimately between good and evil where good truimphs in the end. That gives me hope where so much of life I see doesn’t have hope. So when I meet with people who lack hope I am enabled to give a little to leave them better off from having been in contact with me from that hope I have received and can pass on.
” I did not choose this desert experience but the reality that comes with critical thinking brings an awareness that cannot be denied. Honesty compels me to move forward in my convictions. But mostly I am in a place called “I don’t know”.”
@Hugh – This articulates where I am so well.
@Hugh I think that fits my place as well
Jesus/God has been my closest friend and companion for many years so his seeming absence now is something that is the cause of much grieving. I did not choose this desert experience but the reality that comes with critical thinking brings an awareness that cannot be denied. Honesty compels me to move forward in my convictions. But mostly I am in a place called “I don’t know”.
I remember hearing of a Catholic saint (& mystic?) that referred to this time as a point for God to draw away and say okay, will you still choose me when you feel nothing?
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