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Quite a lengthy one, too. The condescension is a bit lessened, perhaps because he’s discovered that people keep things from him for that. I dunno. I’d like to think so, though.
He truly doesn’t understand where I am. He quite simply does not grasp that I’ve found spiritual paths outside of the church he attends, outside of the religion is subscribes to. OTOH, I do know how to show him where my path started: The Naked Pastor; The Bible: A History (channel 4 documentary), The Wrong Messiah by Nick Page, Pagan Christianity by Frank Viola, Christianity by Linda Woodhead, links to the Gospel of Thomas and Wikipedia articles about the theorized writers of much of the OT (the Elohist, the Jawhist, the Priestly and the Deuteronomist sources), even perhaps Jesus Through Pagan Eyes by Mark Townsend.
If I make a detailed response, I will probably use an analogy begin with. One about a landscape of castles and spires representing all the different variants of Christianity. I’ve gotten down out of the one I was to examine the foundations. And found a lot of interesting things that most of the construction up above is not built properly on.
I’ll paste his response in a reply to this post.
Wade.
This was the email I got this evening:
Hey Wade,
Thank you for your reply. I mean that – thanks for taking the time to let me know where you are. Despite occasionally having lengthy conversations with you, I don’t generally feel that I know what’s actually happening, so I appreciate your sharing in this instance.
I am saddened that you are separating yourself even more from ECC & our bible study, but I do acknowledge and accept your decision to do so. My sadness comes from the fact that I still don’t really know what’s “going on” with this journey of yours, and since I don’t know, I am naturally concerned (as mentioned in my last email). Ultimately, my concern is that what you are learning may not be accurate, which, even if you don’t agree with my current conclusion, I hope you accept the output. (That is, even if you don’t think my conclusion is wrong – which I assume you do not! – I hope you understand that, given my conclusion, I should have concern).
There are still many things I don’t understand. Partly, that you were so eager to do one of these Old Testament books in a more generalised way (and we are doing this term mainly because of your requests last term), but you didn’t show up for the first three weeks, and now think you are learning more elsewhere. Part of me instantly feels that that’s a bit selfish – I mean, if I had some knowledge that others didn’t have, and that knowledge was not only relevant, but vital, I would want to share it. All the more so with my friends. So, I don’t understand: if you are learning so much, why are you not willing to share it with us? This lack of sharing confuses me.
Another thing that confuses me is the whole “other journey” thing. Where is the “here” that you are “out” to? What journey is there, aside from waking with Christ? We know that Jesus says that he is the way, the truth, the light – that aside from him, there is no other way (eg John 14:6). So I don’t understand what this “other journey” you talk about is, or why such a journey wouldn’t be understandable. Honestly, to me it sounds a little gnostic, in that I feel you are trying to claim you have some ‘secret’ or ‘hidden’ knowledge that you cannot share. I hope this is not the case, and is merely my conclusion from not enough information! That idea is definitely spoken against in the Bible, so I hope you understand my concern here, too. Once again, since I am not hearing more deeply about your journey, I cannot be sure if what I am imagining has much validity to it or not; it is just what my mind puts to the general statements in your email.
The third thing that I’m struggling with is your desire for secrecy – at least, that’s how I am seeing it. I’m not sure if you actaully want to keep it all quiet, or if (as we’ve discussed before) it’s part of the introvert behaviour. I have noticed that you tend to share more deeply with others, or when I’m not around. If this is intentional, is it because you wish to hide things from others, or rather that you don’t want your ideas to be challenged? This could well be another concern – especially after we were reading in Jeremiah about how the rulers, scribes, priests and even the king all rejected Jeremiah’s (and thus God’s) criticism. I’m not here trying to say that you are definitely wrong – rather, that we should test everything, and hold on to the truth (1 John 4:1, or 1 Thessalonians 5:21). If we have ideas that are not the “norm”, we need to share them, hear thoughts from others, and argue our cases. If we keep them to ourselves and they are true, then we deprive others of that truth. If we keep them to ourselves and they are false, then we forsake a chance to be corrected, and allow ourselves to fall even further away from the truth. Either way, we need to share, test, think over, and struggle with things.
And this, I think, is my biggest concern for you – that you hold onto these new teachings, and do not allow them to be properly tested. If they are true, and others are following incorrect ideas, then you deprive others of this truth. If they are false, and you shy away from properly testing them, then you could allow them to eat away at what is left of your relationship with Christ. For that is at the heart of being a Christian – being in a relationship with Christ, and following him. If you are saying you are “less Christian”, then you are saying you are moving away from Christ. And that’s of fundamental importance in how we relate to God (John 3:36).
Sure, I have my assumptions, but without further information from you, without actual examples and supporting evidence, how can I think otherwise? From the start, I have said that I am concerned – from love – for your well being, specifically, for your relationship with God. And as you haven’t shared with me these findings / teachings / paths that you hold dear, I don’t feel that I have a lot to go on. Can you share more about these things you feel are so different, that have put you on this different path? I don’t mind in what form, be it another email, or a chat over a drink, or something else, but I do want to know, more accurately, where you are coming from.
Erem.
Nope. Still very condescending and, if I might add, “controlling”… i.e. attempting to control you. Wow.
AnonymousMan I can barely muster the patience to read this, but I did. I’l have more to say later. Sheesh. I admire your grace.
I’ve had discussions with people of that strand of Christianity. I’ve had more fun banging my head against the wall. As you say, it might be worth giving him a list of scholarly sources which reveal some of the cracks in the foundation, but I wouldn’t count on convincing anyone of anything. I’ve found that this type of stuff is extremely scary for some – they tend to fear and then respond out of emotion. Studies show that when we are fearful we can’t think very well. People that have deconstructed are curious and independent in their thinking. And in my experience they are pretty intuitive about BS, they can smell it a mile away.
Yep. Very controlling. And started slinging scripture at you now
I like your analogy. Cathedrals and castles, spires and towers, the view from the pinnacle versus the condition on the ground and the actual state of the foundation all that magnificence rests on – it paints a strong picture. However, I doubt he will get it. Be prepared for “Jesus is the foundation and all else is shifting sand” etc.
You might want to consider addressing the manipulative guilt-ing directly – you know, the “we threw this party just for you and then you didn’t show up” line from Guilting 101. What I’m thinking is to make the assumption the feeling he’s expressing is genuine disappointment (even if it’s not), validate his feeling, and then just don’t bite the baited hook. Something like “I’m sorry for the misunderstanding. I didn’t realize you went to all that trouble just for me – I’m sure it was valuable for everyone else, however, so your effort wasn’t wasted.” Period. No over-explaining and no bait-taking.
The “secrecy” thing is totally annoying – hits some of my buttons. Again, address it directly, working under the assumption that he is well-intended: “It’s unfortunate you feel I’ve been secretive. That is not my intent and I appreciate your concern. As you know, it is not my habit to open significant personal matters to debate and discussion. However, I think you might find these books of interest…” Or something like that, if you even want to acknowledge that part. Address the feelings expressed, don’t over explain, and put the ball back in his court. Or just ignore it entirely and toss out some reading material for him to chew on. He’ll probably continue to evangelize, talking past you, but you’ll be on the high road and true to yourself.
My 2 cents. Or pence.
Rob Lentz, you have described the situation almost perfectly. I have no expectations of convincing Erem of where I am. He has not even grasped that the frame of reference has shifted out from his arguments.
A bit more background on said sparring partner. He was the one who got me back interested in Dungeons and Dragons again and both hosted and ran games that I participated in (stepped back from that because I just didn’t have the time to DM which I really wanted to do). We also have similar taste in fantasy fiction and similar senses of humour. I shifted to the bible study he and his wife ran a few years ago because I was tired of being a generation younger than everyone else in my prior study.
This was all long before I started rebuilding my spiritual foundations, of course.
Wade.
Syl, you have good advice. I do not doubt his intent is sincere. It is true that I was the one asking for Jeremiah, but this was in the absence of other suggestions!
The “secrecy” need is actually very real and this is the first time I’ve had to deal with it. And Erem’s response is precisely why it needs to stay that way.
Wade.
I just skimmed it as I figured it was the usual “ya-ya”. You know, hindsight is 20/20 and now knowing that situations like this will get the type of reaction you’re getting can help us to deal with them better. In other words, a lot of people are trained, more or less, to have all the right answers and to be concerned when someone is leaving the faith or the path and to do what they can to guide them back. Knowing that, it can be almost like a game and you just let them do what they have to do while remaining resolute in your decision. In fact, the more you share with him, the more fuel it gives him to try to refute each point you make. If you list out your resources, he’ll probably go research them and tell you why they are errant. If you were dealing with someone more open-minded, I’d say go for it because at least that person would listen and wish you well in your search. In this case, this individual will just try to argue and refute. It’s almost like dealing with Jehovah’s Witnesses. Many of them have only been trained with certain answers. Once you realize that, you can deal with them accordingly.
As for his claim that you’re being selfish, I would ask him hasn’t he ever grown and changed and doesn’t he realize that when growth happens, it’s out of one’s control. You don’t plan it, it just happens and it was never your desire to mislead. With the whole “test everything”, you can let him know you’ve found a community in which you are doing just that. Wish him well and keep on movin’.
Well, Wade, now we know the root cause of your backslidden ways. Dungeons and Dragons!! I used to be into role-playing years ago and loved it. Always good for a lot of laughs. And of course I remember being told how evil it was and it was inviting demons into you. Be something I’d like to try again but it seems to be a forgotten art form now
This is some of what I notice…
” I’m not here trying to say that you are definitely wrong ”
“I don’t generally feel that I know what’s actually happening”
“My sadness comes from the fact that I still don’t really know what’s “going on” with this journey of yours” -Wahhhhh Wade you make him sad! sniffle. tissue please.
“I am naturally concerned”
“still many things I don’t understand”
“my concern is that…”
“(That is, even if you don’t think my conclusion is wrong – which I assume you do not! – I hope you understand that, given my conclusion, I should have concern”
“Partly, that you were so eager”
“we are doing this term mainly because of your requests last term), but you didn’t show up for the first three weeks, and now think you are learning more elsewhere. ”
“Part of me instantly feels that that’s a bit selfish”
“I mean, if I had some knowledge that others didn’t have, and that knowledge was not only relevant, but vital, I would want to share it.”
“I don’t understand:”
“lack of sharing confuses me.”
“Another thing that confuses me”
“So I don’t understand ”
“I feel you are trying to claim you have some ‘secret’ or ‘hidden’ knowledge that you cannot share.”
“Once again, since I am not hearing more deeply about your journey, I cannot be sure
it is just what my mind puts to the general statements in your email.”
“the third thing that I’m struggling with”
“your desire for secrecy – at least, that’s how I am seeing it.”
“I have noticed that you tend to share more deeply with others, or when I’m not around. If this is intentional, is it because you wish to hide things from others, or rather that you don’t want your ideas to be challenged?”
“And this, I think, is my biggest concern for you ”
“From the start, I have said that I am concerned – from love – for your well being, specifically, for your relationship with God. ” -this is not love. it’s manipulation and bullshit
“but I do want to know, more accurately, where you are coming from.” -He does not.
I would respond with a “thank you for your concern” and don’t explain anything else. This is an unkind letter sent to discredit you. He put a lot of time and energy into it. Wow you got under his skin! He accuses you of secrets and cutting him out. To me, it sounds like you have a boundary and he does not like your “no.” I wouldn’t discuss anymore.
He has a lot of concern and struggles about/with you. I think it’s actually a little creepy frankly. But, it’s par for the course since he thinks he knows better and needs to correct you.
I think this email is a trap Wade and there is not really an answer for him. He wants only the answer you can’t give him.
When I left my church a few years ago, the pastor wanted to have a talk with me. I agreed and invited him over to my house. He showed up prepared to apply all the apologetic arguments for anything he could perceive that I could say. He was also a master of finding just the right bible verse to back up any point he wanted to make.
We initially made small talk and talked about family and such things and then kind-of got down to it. He started out with kind-of tentatively feeling me out as to why I was no longer attending. I initially gave some oblique responses about wanting to explore other spiritual avenues. He then started in with the bible quotes. Not really having the patience for hearing all these bible quotes, I then just told him flat out that I did not believe the bible was in fact the inspired word of God and did not believe in the Christian notion of an afterlife, sin, and needing to be saved. This kind-of made him speechless. Almost everything he was prepared to say was based on the assumption that I believed the bible to be true but I just needed to be educated (or reminded) on what the bible actually said. At that moment, he kind-of realized that he had nothing really to say to me. He realized that the game was up. The tension between us evaporated and the conversation kind-of changed directions. Interestingly he admitted to me that his own beliefs were quite a bit more moderate than the congregation at large and he preached to a point more conservative than what he believed but to a point a bit more moderate than most in the congregation would like. He said that sometimes got him into trouble with the congregation and it was a balancing act.
A month or two later, someone else from the congregation invited me to lunch. I wasn’t really sure why he asked me to lunch (I’m probably naïve about these kinds of things). Anyway, we had the typical small-talk for a while and then he started in with why I was not going to church any more. I was kind-of taken back because I didn’t see that coming. I didn’t really level with him like I did the pastor and told him that I just didn’t think the church was a good fit for me. He asked me what other church I was considering. I just told him I had not found another one yet was just enjoying not going anywhere for the moment. He actually then told me that he was thinking about changing churches because he thought the pastor was a bit to liberal for his taste.
It is an interesting world that we live in.
He is acting as a trained soldier in the war on Christianity, not as a friend or as a thinker (though he really really wants to be thought of as a thiker!)
AnonymousHere’s the line that gets me: “if you are learning so much, why are you not willing to share it with us?” Talk about a LOADED question! That’s like being invited to a firing squad knowing YOU are going to be the target!
IF they really had “ears to hear” they ought to be careful what they wish for! But since they don’t, they will just make you the bad guy so they can continue to feel good about themselves and their beliefs. No wonder Jesus kept telling people to have “eyes to see” and “ears to hear!”
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