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Helene suggested that this might be a good discussion topic. What follows is taken from my blog:
I have been in touch with many former Christians who now describe themselves as atheists, some of whom reject religion of any kind, but who accept that there may be a spiritual aspect of life that they are not aware of. There have always been people who do not believe in God. Writers like Richard Dawkins, Christopher Hitchens, Sam Harris and Daniel Dennet are very vociferous in their attack on theism (belief in God), insisting that you cannot prove beyond any doubt that God exists. But they often ask some very valid questions that the Christian religion doesn’t seem to have good answers for. The reality is surely that we can neither prove nor disprove the existence of God. If God exists he/she/it originates from a place beyond the physical universe, and if this is true it is surely impossible for the evidence to exist within our human understanding. This has led me to think that a belief in God is something that lies outside the realms of intellect, logic and reason. To me the belief in sola scriptura and the inerrancy of the Bible makes no sense. Religion I would suggest, is all about what we think we know about God, while faith is about the personal relationship we think we have with God.
It was in June 2012 that I came across the expression agnostic theist for the first time, and that really set me thinking. I have had many deep discussions over the years with believers (theists), agnostics and atheists. Atheists are commonly thought of as those who have no belief in God, but there is a lot of confusion caused by misunderstanding what people see as the differences. Let me suggest for the sake of discussion that a theist is someone who is convinced that God exists, while an atheist is convinced that a god does not exist, and an agnostic has some doubts (on a sliding scale from close to being a theist to close to being an atheist) which would suggest that almost all of us are agnostic to some extent. I would describe myself as an agnostic theist – I have little doubt that God exists but I do have many questions about the details. At the same time I know from the experiences of my own family how others can be agnostic atheists.
The basic meaning of agnostic is Not Knowing. The word god really has no meaning to me since I don’t know anything about god or what god might be. The only voice in my head is my own. I don’t even know the right question to ask because I have no authentic concept of god. I don’t see how it would even be possible to honestly engage in a conversation about something that is so poorly defined and understood.
If I were to talk about the god described by Christians I am an atheist to that god without a doubt. That god deconstructs itself very quickly.
I much prefer to leave the transcendent nature un-described. Words and descriptions are limited by the nature of language. Language requires definitions to be meaningful and so much of what we call spiritual is ill defined or not defined at all. It’s pretty difficult to determine if we are talking about the same thing.
When I look at the things that create joy for me I am equally at a loss to tell you why these things cause me joy as I would be to tell you what I thought god was. I recognize that there is a subjective aspect of the human experience that deconstructs itself as soon as we ask why.
For example; Let’s say my wife asks me why I love her. This is a trick question. Let’s say I try to answer and I say I love her because she makes me nice meals. The follow up question is. “Would I love her if she didn’t make me nice meals?” I could have a laundry list of reasons I love her and she could ask me the same thing about each one. If, at some point I said, I guess I wouldn’t love you if you didn’t have any of these qualities, this would reveal that I don’t really love her. Our relationship would be based on a contract and that is not love. To answer why I love her is to destroy love. I really don’t know why I love her, I just do.
I reject a mechanistic view of the human being because it reduces what it means to be human. There is an aspect of humanity that is only reflected in the practice of art and story telling. What it means to be human is just as indescribable as god. I can directly see and feel humanity. That is why I am a humanist rather than a theist. I love humanity. In a way Jesus loved humanity because he says that whatever you do to the least of humanity you have done to him. I don’t believe that Jesus was a real person, but who ever was making up the Jesus story had recognized something within their current world view that was important and decided to express that through the Jesus narrative.
I have three transcendent experiences that I reference and they are all meaningful images that emerged to produce profound changes in my direction. Their timing is irrelevant, but their message for me was very influential because it shifted how I felt. I had already worked out what I thought in each case, but I had not been convinced emotionally. The process of trying to carry out what I had learned was too self conscious to be believable.
The most recent and probably the most simple was an image that was not a dream, but was a lucid dream. I felt like I was awake. I saw and felt two beings of light. The one adult being of light was holding a baby of light. The interesting sensation was that I was both beings at the same time and I felt this tender regard coming from the adult being of light. I have known intellectually that to love others I need to love myself. I had not known how to really love myself before this experience. This created a shift for me. I can’t tell anyone else how to love themselves. It didn’t reveal a specific plan or teaching on how to do this, but I now know that I love myself.
Interesting discussion! I would definitely fall under the agnostic category if others needed to plug me in somewhere. I don’t care about labels anymore. But I wouldn’t call myself a “theist” either if that means there is a god out there somewhere looking down rather than in all things, that consumes us all. I cannot point to god and neither can i not point to god… it’s the all in all things.
Richard suggests the basic meaning of agnostic is ‘not knowing’ while I have suggested ‘has some doubts’ – not much difference there as far as I can see.
Richard says he has no authentic concept of God and doesn’t see how it would even be possible to honestly engage in a conversation about something that is so poorly defined and understood. I wouldn’t disagree with that because as I’ve said, my belief in God is something that lies outside the realms of intellect, logic and reason.
I can understand why Richard considers himself an atheist to the god described by Christians. I have understood for several years that there is an enormous difference between the Christian RELIGION (much of which we would both reject) and the Christian FAITH (that has very little if anything to do with logic or reason).
We have a differing focus on life and a differing perception. I have no problem with that.
I agree with David. I don’t care for labels. The idea of a god out there somewhere looking down is all part of that RELIGION that I positively reject.
It might be helpful to use the Wikipedia definition of Agnosticism:
Agnosticism is the belief that the existence or non-existence of any deity is unknown and possibly unknowable. Agnosticism can be defined in various ways, and is sometimes used to indicate doubt or a skeptical approach to questions. In the popular sense, an agnostic is someone who neither believes nor disbelieves in the existence of a deity or deities. In the strict sense, however, agnosticism is the view that humanity does not currently possess the requisite knowledge and/or reason to provide sufficient rational grounds to justify the belief that deities either do or do not exist.
Pete,
I want to make sure that I’m not giving the impression that I’m comparing our two beliefs. I tend to give my definitions for the purpose of understanding what I’m saying, not to compare them with anyone else. So I hope that you don’t believe that I’m being critical of your claims.
Just as I am ignorant of any god or gods, I am equally unqualified to talk about what you believe.
Richard,
I appreciate your comment. I have no problem with what you said. Our journeys have been very different, as a result of which we have very different perspectives. Using the sliding scale I suggested it is obvious that we are at almost opposite ends of that scale.
I have never had any theological training, nor have I ever been in a leadership position (although I have been very close to leaders going through wilderness experiences). I have some unconventional, many would say heretical beliefs, and I would be the first to admit that some of those beliefs lie outside the realms of intellect, logic and reason. Both of my children consider themselves to be very much at the atheistic end of the scale, and after what we have been through as a family that seems to be a very reasonable conclusion, based on their experience of life.Today, this is how I describe my interaction with “god,”
” Every time I try to live as if there is no “other” to speak with, something happens and I’m back in the conversation.” Is this cultural? Learned? I have no idea. But it is what it is for me today.
Old Pete, thanks for raising this topic, and for everyone’s contributions. It gives me much to think about. Oh, and I feel quite rude addressing you as “Old Pete” ! I feel I have to call myself “Old Helene” now !
I am definitely atheistic to the judeo/christian god of my upbringing. I am desiring to just be a person though…not an “atheist”…I feel sad that there’s little to no freedom in society for people who don’t want to embrace any labels at all. Labels are nasty little sheepdogs that corral you into a pen against your will. I’ve actually witnessed people making a broader “pen” to fit the others that they think need to have a label. Just like laundry detergent. Tide original or Tide free of dyes and perfumes with HE formulation? Except I understand why the detergent need to be labeled.
Unlike items on a shelf, each of us experience. We experience differently and each unique viewpoint has validity to the person experiencing it and should not be so readily deconstructed and packaged so as to mass produce unfair stigmas and rhetoric against them. In my opinion, there’s no way to both do unto others as you want done to you AND shove people into your own mental filing cabinet. Unless someone tells you that they identify under some label, I think maybe it would be best to look on them as a fellow human being.And even then, see them as a human being. .. recognizing that they may not want that label for ever. Let them hold the label. Don’t do it for them.
If they tell you they’re a space alien then don’t automatically assume you or they are coo coo
Moxie, I did suggest that for the sake of discussion we might consider that an atheist is convinced that a god (no capital letters) does not exist.
We certainly don’t need labels. I can understand someone rejecting the god of their upbringing, but how do you feel about the possibility of there being a god?
Helene, I’m happy to be called Pete. When I first wanted a moniker on the Internet (in 1997) I realised I was one of a minority of over 60’s. Fifteen years is a long time – and there are a lot more oldies now!
Pete, thank you for your reply and question.
First, at this point in my journey, I might be a little “hung up” on anti-labeling feelings and thoughts, I’ll admit. I am not intending to detract or distract from the purpose of this thread. I apologize if that’s how I have come across. I might not have read the whole thread thoroughly enough before replying, since I somehow missed that you pre-defined what believers, agnostics and atheists are in this conversation. By no means am I saying that in a challenging way or trying to be rude. I guess it’s established that sometimes people have their own (either slightly different or very different) definitions for these words because by nature the subject is not extremely defineable, yes? This has been my experience anyway.
To answer your question, I am struggling to know how I feel. I have had (very) recent interactions with firm believers that have been far from pleasant, and it’s just confirmed to me once again that I really, really don’t believe in their God. However, I think it would be arrogant of me to declare that there isn’t anything bigger than myself that runs this whole process of life and death. So I guess the simple answer is still, I don’t know.
I want to share this first video from Bill Moyer’s interview with Joseph Campbell on the power of myth. Joseph Campbell’s work on myth and Carl Jung have provided a useful language for my experiences of the transcendent. He presents the idea of using myth as a guru.
Richard – Thank you for posting Joseph Campbell. This is a wonderful conversation between two thoughtful, respectful, courageous people and their discussion is freeing. I found the companion book to The Power of Myth at the Goodwill last year and it follows me around the house. Thank you.
Off the Map, find me that book at the goodwill! I too loved listening to this video. Thanks Richard.
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