This topic contains 17 replies, has 9 voices, and was last updated by 
-
Posts
-
AnonymousHi all
I have just joined here and have been reading a few of the threads with interest. What I wanted to talk about is fear. I was a ‘born-again’ Christian for a relatively short period over a decade ago. Over time, I started to question more and more what I was being taught. I couldn’t understand why God would exclude people from heaven just because they hadn’t heard about him in a way which was sufficiently convincing – I kept wondering why God didn’t just reveal himself clearly to everyone so that everyone could make a decision about whether to follow him. The more I thought about it the more it seemed obvious that Christianity – and indeed all religions – were just very human constructions which had been invented to fulfill the human need for ritual, meaning etc. So, as I said, I started to drift away from religion and now I would describe myself as agnostic/atheist or something like that. The thing is though, in some ways, I really wish I could believe in something like Christianity just because it was so comforting. I always had this ‘knowledge’ that there was someone watching over me and that even when I died, I would eventually go to heaven. I think moving away from that belief (delusion?) was really traumatic for me. For a long time I used to get panic attacks where I would feel that the world/reality was disolving and that I was descending into some sort of hell. Luckily I don’t get those anymore but I do still have this ever-present fear – I guess its fundamentally a fear of death, of my own mortality. Sometimes I surpress it, sometimes I can do so for long periods of time, but it is always there.
I wanted to know if others have similar – and if so whether you have any advice for me on coping with it.
Great topic Kirsty. I can’t wait to see what others have to say. I no longer fear death myself. Perhaps because I have found an inner peace. Perhaps because I’ve had a full life. Perhaps because I’m older. Perhaps…
Kirsty,
This is a good topic and touches on a lot of issues. I think I’ve been trying to make peace with my own loss of belief in the convenient structure of religion. I think religions, theologies, stories, myths, in part, are trying to define meaning. The Meaning. I think it is inherent in the human journey to find The Meaning to our experience. We, humans, are so unique in the universe. “It” , The Meaning, must be there. I like David’s post this morning about the waterfall – the vision, the picture, the story about what is happening to us. I think many of us live with the sense, the conviction, that there must be something more than what we are. Perhaps we see our mortality, our frailty, our cruelty and need that sense of something bigger and better than us. We long for justice and resolution. We long for the power to make things right. When those things are not possible in this life, we look for some larger solution. Culturally, humans tell story after story, in our families, with our friends, in our communities – these are the things that we share – the things that happen to us. History. I think it is comforting to know that others know your story, that we are part of their history.
My Dad died, many years ago now. He has not called or written since. That is supposed to be funny, as I didn’t expect him to call but I was a little surprised that I did not experience a sense of him after he was gone – I think I expected him to be, somehow, present, in spirit, going forward. That has not been my experience. I had the opportunity to visit the catacombs in Paris and see the millions of bones, representing millions of persons whose stories are lost now. Their names, lost. It really brought home the vastness of human history and the small bit we each are. I keep the names of friends who have died in my phone and run across them every once in a while – it is a simple memorial.
I would like to have the sense that death is not The End. That something as rich and wonderful and difficult as my life does not vanish but transforms. We live our whole experience as individuals in time and space – it is hard to conceive of its being otherwise. I don’t really like the idea of being transformed into a part of the vast spiritual energy of the universe upon dying and I’m not fond of being returned, simply, to dust. I really like the idea of arriving at a destination and being free of care and want and pain, and able to reunite with those who’ve died before me. Heaven. I just don’t have any evidence for that and the idea was taught to me by an institution that had its own agenda.
So – I am in my middle age. Life expectancy being what it is and genetics giving some indication – I am, likely, more than half way through with my life. I am working towards adding life into my life, every day. I am working towards supporting the living of other persons I meet. I am trying to be present to joy every day and to let that be enough. I do experience something larger than myself when I engage in living, when I engage in the lives of others. It is not about happiness – it is about a resonant witnessing and acknowledgement of my own experience and the experience of others. That feels like joy and it feels like a wave, a waterfall I am part of. I would say I try, consciously, to be present now, and not to go over that last horizon until I get there. I don’t think I can change death with my convictions and wishing will not make changes happen. But I can change how much power fear has over me. I can engage in every day, in every life with courage and kindness and not give fear the chance to steal that away.
Peace and courage to you.
Hi Off the map,
Awesome post. You really expressed a lot of my sentiments there. I am in my late 50’s and I have heart issues, a pacemaker and often have strange palpitations. These things often remind me of my mortality, that my death really is not that far off. I used to think that I knew where I was going at death, heaven/the kingdom, now I do not know. And I do not think anybody else really knows either. It would be nice if there was a heavenly afterlife, but we may have to settle for some kind of material unity with the substance of the universe without consciousness. What a downer, aye!? Another way to look at immortality is that we continue through our offspring. Because of religion (a kind of fundamentalism) I am cut off from my son and grandchildren. So I cannot even enjoy the remaining years in the company of my ‘future’. Bummer of all bummers. Oh well maybe I’ll figure it out before the end, (my quest is pretty much all-consuming) and hope springs eternal.
Kristy, fear is such a bitch. I first started belief in Christianity because I was told at a very young age that hell was a terrible place and if I prayed the sinners prayer I would go to heaven (thank you Grandma) and therefore be saved from hell. I think I hoped it would save me from my fear. But that did not stick for long. In Jr. High youth group they showed us all those terrible “end times” movies where “the beast “was going to come and we would have to have the “mark of the beast” just so we could eat, etc. That gave me nightmares for a long time. But, here’s the thing, in my mid thirties, my Dad suddenly came to live with my family for a few short weeks and then died. None of my prayers were answered and it was a terrible, scary experience. I thought I had BIG faith. Turns out my faith didn’t change a thing. Nothing. And when he died I never heard from him again. The same Dad who died for Off the Map was my Dad as well. All this to say, I am not sure what happens when we die… but I have made peace with needing to know, I guess. People have theories but I see that these are only theories. I wish someone would send me a post card from there, like my Dad, saying, “it’s all true. see you soon.” But no post card came from any of them. All we have is here and now. The not knowing has lead me towards a place of incredible freedom from the confines of religion. Does it mean I don’t have fear? Well not exactly but I’m not caught up in making sure that I do and believe the right things so I won’t go to “hell.” I take comfort in people like Off the Map and Hugh’s posts. These days I leave the next life up to the mystery and hope that whatever “IT” is, has us all covered.
Hugh,
I thought a great deal about the “legacy” we leave through our children – the idea that who were are continues because of our children. But what about those who have no children? What about those who could not or chose not to have children? What about those whose children do not outlive them? That, then is not the measure of what we leave behind, though it is certainly part of it for some. Our children cannot be our ticket to that which is “everlasting” should there be such a thing. It must be within each of us to experience and contribute to whatever is “infinite” on our own. We are able to contribute to that “tide”, such as it will be, such as it is, on our own. That part of each of us that longs for the connection, that fears obliteration, that hopes, must be sufficient – the great democratic thinker in me says we are all equal. Perhaps that is part of what we long for when we think of possessing a spirit – that fundamental thing that is equally valued, essential identical in worth to every other – that “something” that deserves justice in equal measure to every other person. Some of the appeal of the idea of heaven and hell is an ultimate justice – the real bad guys loose in the real end.
But those ideas don’t really address the original question – as Kirsty put it:
“I do still have this ever present fear – I guess its fundamentally a fear of death, of my own mortality. Sometimes I suppress it. Sometimes I can do so for long periods of time, but it is always there. I wanted to know if others have similar – and if so whether you have any advice for me on coping with it”.
Kirsty – I have had several experiences in my life when I knew I was about to go through something I could not control and I could not get around. I would have to go through it. The only way I knew to do that was to let go and go with it. I can only hope that when the time comes to die I’ll have the same ability to let go. My grandmother died this last spring. The night before she died, she held my sister in laws’ hand and said, “It will be ok”. I don’t know what “it” she was referring to – one can assume many things, but she was an honest woman who saw things for what they were. I think she knew she was going and I think she understood, in that moment, that it was scarier for us than for her.
I think it is reasonable to mourn the reality that we die. That what we know, who we are, ceases. I think it is ok to honor that. It is ok that it makes us afraid.
I try to honor the memory of the people I have known who are gone. – as I mentioned, I keep the names of people I have loved in my phone contact list (deleting their numbers since that is a terrible phone conversation if you accidentally dial!)…I have dinner for my Dad, every year, on his birthday. I have things around my home which remind me of people I have loved, whose love has sustained me even though they are now gone.
When I am afraid of death, I am afraid of being nothing. When I am afraid of death, I am afraid life did not mean what I thought it meant – that there was no meaning. I am afraid of being alone, and I am afraid that “alone” is eternal. Now that sucks!
When that fear threatens to paralyze me, I try to engage. When I am afraid of being alone, I try to find company. When I am afraid of being forgotten, I try to remember. When I am afraid there is no meaning I search and find it in the moment. I think this is one reason ritual has such power – a shared experience, infused with meaning that stands against isolation. I consider the rituals that have had power for me historically and I try to bring some of that back into my life in a way that is life affirming. I hope some of this is helpful or at least affirms your experience.
Peace
AnonymousWow people- thanks so much for these lovely, thoughtful replies. I need to let them percolate a bit before I respond but just wanted to say thanks for being so open and empathetic.
Off the map,
I really like that you have thought deeply about these things and are a caring person. It was just a personal note that I mention about continuance through the ‘legacy’ of my grandchildren. In a sense we could all count our legacy (immortality) through the continuance of the human family that comes after us whether we are directly related or not. The successful survival of the human family on earth in the ages to come is something that we all today are a part of. That is why it is important to make an effort to leave this world in a better condition than when we entered it. To help others along the way is a worthy goal, and this can be done in a myriad of ways, too numerous to detail. ( If I allow myself to indulge in a little science fiction I could posit that some time in the far future the human race will develop time travel and become our saviors as they travel back get us before we die so that we could populate other planets. See how hope springs eternal? Lol )
I think the fear of death will always be with us to some extent. It is built into us for our survival, whether by evolution or otherwise. It seems that death is a part of the universe, whether we are talking about stars and galaxies or bacteria or human life. Death is change and constant change is part and parcel of the natural order of things. The bible claims that death came about because of the sin of Adam and Eve but that seems more unbelievable to me as time goes on. Perhaps we can alleviate some of our fear of death by accepting that things are just the way they are. There are no easy answers.
Hugh – thanks for your thoughtfulness. I like the science fiction angle and being rescued by the future – I was also thinking about the real need to be the shepherds of our time and place, as it were. That we are responsible and “able to respond” to the needs we, as individuals in this time, encounter . This is a legacy that is likely immeasurable.
My 17 year old and I had a conversation this afternoon about “faith” spurred on by my conversation here that centers on faith that we matter. He said “faith was trusting that The Grand Creator of the Universe” isn’t a lying cheat. We can have a conversation about whether there is a Grand Creator and what the Grand Creator may have lied and cheated about, but I appreciated his perspective. Faith. Trust. We matter. That we are here, matters. When we are gone, that will matter too.
Kirsty – I am interested to hear more about what makes you afraid.
Peace All.
I love this Mary Oliver poem:
To live in this world
you must be able to do three things:
to love what is mortal;
to hold it
against your bones knowing
your own life depends on it;
and when the time comes to let it go,
let it go.
First, Welcome Kirsty! Thanks for your honesty and transparency.
I’ve talked about fear a lot here. It seems to be such a power force in religion that others have also talked about it here as well.
I used to fear death, or more specifically what happened after I died. However, now I don’t believe there is anything after death. For awhile, despite my practical approach to this belief, it made me a little sad. When you’ve been raised all your life to believe that there is an afterlife, one filled with rewards if you make it into heaven, then the thought of nothing can be a little depressing. Thankfully, as I started living for the now and not the after, I overcome that fear. I love better, care more, give of myself completely, listen more, and basically try to be present in the moment, because I know this is my one and only life. I have many fears and insecurities, but thankfully their not tied up around a belief system.
AnonymousFirst of all I wanted to say sorry for starting this thread and then disappearing for a week! Believe it or not I have been away on a survival training course- as part of my job I sometimes have to travel to ‘fragile environments’ so they send us all on this course where we practice getting kidnapped by terrorists and mending severed limbs etc! It seemed rather ironic to me that after reading all your posts and being deep in thought about death and my fear of it, I went off on this course to try to learn some skills to avoid it. I also reflected that despite my big fear of death, I have not always been terribly sensible in avoiding dangerous situations – not sure why that it….
But anyway, a couple of posters asked me what it is that I fear. I guess that at first the fear was just of the possibility that hell, as it had been drummed into me by the church, did actually exist and that I was going there. Over the years though, I started to feel that the Christian concept of hell is just a human ‘explanation’ – a story that helps people to have meaning but not something real to be feared. You might think that this helped me to be less fearful but I’m not sure it did. I just seemed to move to being afraid of the state of not being. I think ‘Off the map’ put it really nicely thus: “I would like to have the sense that death is not The End. That something as rich and wonderful and difficult as my life does not vanish but transforms.” I had a friend who once said that he was no more afraid of what happens after death that he was about what happened before he was born – I always thought this was an interesting way to look at it but it doesn’t really stop me from fearing.
Linked to that big fear of death, I tend to get very upset thinking about the passage of time – and the fact that it cannot be held back. I have the awful sense that pretty soon I will wake up one morning and realise that I am old and that my life is nearly over. I mean, for example, ten years ago seems to be just like yesterday and so I worry that 10 years in the future will be just like tomorrow. The funny thing is that as I write this, I remember that even as a child I used to get very upset and worried about this. Like servantgirl, one thing that I do find helpful with this aspect – the worry about the passage of time – is mindfulness and meditation. It helps me to be aware of the present moment and not constantly thinking about the past and future.
From all of that it probably sounds like I am totally neurotic! I guess that inside I maybe am but I am not sure that I seem that way. I have never really told people about my fear of death. I just recently talked about it with my husband and now, I found this forum where I felt it might be ok to talk about it. I definitely can go for long periods of time without getting bogged down worrying about it. But I do always come back to it.
starfielder, I do love that poem you posted. It has been going through my mind a lot. The other thing that really stood out for me from the conversation above was off the map’s story about his grandma. I don’t know if anyone has ever read the book ‘Feel the fear and do it anyway’ but this story reminds me of the opening chapter where the author talks about the need for us to face our fears and assure ourselves that, if they come to pass (and I guess my fear definitely will!) we will handle it!
I would be interested to hear more about other people’s experiences of fear – whether it is fear of death or otherwise.
Kristy, off the map is my sister. She and I have this shared view of the experience of our Grandmother and of our Dad’s death. We talk about these things as we process them and wonder about them. Fear gave me heart palpitations for a year and a half when I thought I had to stay in the church I was part of. When I realized that I could let go of it, the fear seemed to seep away like fog clearing. My heart stopped waking me at night with it’s pounding and flip flopping inside my chest. Mindfulness meditation has been a great help to my husband and myself. The shared experiences of others here, and in my daily life give me great comfort. I’ll think more about this fear thing… peace.
AnonymousFear of death….when I have anxiety I go through this thought process where I ask myself, what’s the worst that can happen? And usually because I’m having anxiety about something that would be labeled “paranoia,” the answer ends up being “I could die.”
So about a year ago I wrote on a 3×5 card: “Today you might die.” I made myself read that card every morning and sit with the idea until I got comfortable with it. When I did that, anxiety turned up less frequently and when it did, it was usually “normal” anxiety so this was a great teacher in that it helped me differentiate between “mental illness” anxiety and helpful anxiety. (I have issues with the idea of “mental illness” and all the labeling….thus the incessant use of “”.)
In the beginning of this exercise, I had to come face to face with the fear that I didn’t know what was going to happen to me in death or beyond death. I mean, really admit to myself that I have zero idea what will become of Me. It made me get okay with the fact that one of the potentials in the scenario is that I Cease To Exist. Like, big-time cease to exist.
There have been so many stages of mourning throughout this journey out of X. One was definitely mourning the idea that I had the afterlife figured out – that I would be taken care of similarly to being taken care of by my IRA in old age. I wish I could say I no longer fear death. I notice that I’m going through various stages of fear of it. Most of the time I think, “Bring it.” But sometimes fear creeps up on me and surprises me. Back to the 3×5 card I go…
In my experience fear comes from judgement. And judgement is about ego. It generally involves a judgement about how something feels to me, whether that is what I feel about what happens to me or how I feel about what happens to someone else. This thing we have called ego gives us the ability to know that we exist. I am a separate consciousness than the other.
When I take a global view of the vastness of the universe I generally feel small and insignificant. And even that is about ego. I am made aware of how little I can control. Again ego. I can and have grieved over this reality. Solomon grieved over this reality when he declared that all is vanity.
The problem with Christianity is that it “solves” this problem by appealing to our ego. It doesn’t help us get past our ego. It presents us with a future life free from care and unbounded power and riches because we are rewarded for being “better” than those who didn’t believe. All this does is prove that Christianity is reflection of our ego.
It is a tricky path to let go of these fears and avoid putting ourselves down. Putting ourselves down is still judgement and it is still ego. I realized from an exercise I learned from reading A Course in Miracles that I am writing the story and giving meaning to the world around me. The world around me doesn’t have any meaning other than what I give to it. And my pain is coming from the story my ego makes up about the world.
As soon as I learned how to accept what is and let go of my need to control the narrative I felt much happier and much more at peace. One of the great freedoms that came from leaving Christianity is the continual pressure to be a “good” person. I have discovered that I have a natural ability to empathize and this feeling connects me with people in my life.
I also learned how to reason effectively. I think it is very helpful to take a basic course on informal and formal reasoning. Critical Reasoning for beginners is available for free from the University of Oxford on YouTube. This is an effective and rigorously honest way to determine certain types of truth. I used this to extensively research the history of the Christian church. From this research I determined that the concept of hell was definitely a human invention devised to control other people. It is a later invention that conceptually did not exist at the time of Jesus Christ. And this doesn’t even address the injustice of an idea such as an eternal hell. You can watch Dan Barker’s parody of this idea in the thread “Christianity in a Nutshell”
There are real tools to navigate the life we have with joy and meaning. It takes work, but it is well worth it.
In my personal exploration the idea that has the most evidence to me is the idea of re-incarnation. There is good evidence that certain consciousnesses return and children before the age of 6 remember a lot of the former life. This doesn’t prove that it’s reincarnation, but it does strongly indicate that living beings have access to this information. I’m not believing in re-incarnation and all the complex karma games you have to play since, to me, that just puts me back where I was with Christianity, but it is an intriguing idea. And it presents all kinds of questions on the nature of consciousness.
I think if there was an explanation of how life and consciousness work it would be too complex for any of us to understand. That doesn’t mean I don’t try to understand anyway, but I don’t hold too tightly to any one idea.
You must be logged in to reply to this topic.