This topic contains 32 replies, has 17 voices, and was last updated by 
-
Posts
-
Off the map… well said! First “the betrayal and hollow hypocrisy rings too loud and we want to be free of the lie.”
Second, “How do we respons to them? How do we support them without leaving them in harms way. Is that possible?”
I think my first response is to choose love every time. Choose love choose love choose love. This being said, I too wonder how others navigate this question…
The immediate loss of friends was palpable and lasting. We’ve made new friends.
So I think these two threads weave together – StarryNight had a good answer – It depends on who we’re talking to. Some people have not earned the right to know you well. They get the pat “we’re on hiatus”, “taking a break” answer. Then there are the people who have earned the right to know you, whom you’ve earned the right to know, to be known by, and they deserve the real answer – the one that tells the heart of the story. But I run into the burden of experience here. I realize, as I type this, that I don’t want to say things that will prevent others from forging their own relationships. This is really true when I think of my children. My example: I am divorced. I don’t really speak to my former in-laws. My children love their grandparents and enjoy the time they have together. I would not sour my children’s right to build their own relationships with their grandparents. When my kids point out their frustrations with those relationships I can speak about what I know to be true and give my kids the opportunity to see an adult perspective without trashing their grandparents. My conversations around church are very similar. I am deeply committed to my kids’ learning to be responsible in their relationships and learning to trust their own judgement rather than trusting only what they are told.
The simple truth that “we make new friends” is a sweet thread of hope.
Off the Map. I hear you loud and clear.
AnonymousHow do we resp0nd to questions challenging anything really? I mean, if someone challenged the way you were parenting, or taking care of your elderly parent, or doing your job, how would you respond then? Why are people challenging us? The right to challenge comes from a place of misplaced superiority.
I don’t respond well to that kind of attitude.
But if I’m going to give someone the benefit of the doubt? “Oh just because.” And then smile. And then ask them how their church life is going? What is the pastor teaching? What is the topic in Sunday school? How are the kids liking their groups?
I don’t owe anyone else an explanation as to how my spiritual and religious life is going. I am not required to give a satisfying reason why I’m not in the church anymore. And I would say about 90% of the time, when I was asked, I was being asked by someone who was taught that it was their responsibility to keep other Christians accountable and on the straight and narrow. Well I don’t buy into that script anymore. If they do, well, that’s their problem, not mine.
I’ve found that the angst I experienced with this question goes away when I remind myself that I don’t have to answer any question. I’m allowed to say, and have said, “I don’t want to talk about it.” And then change the subject.
Well put, Verilux.
Yeah very good point Verilux, I feel exactly the same way. The reasons for why I don’t go to church anymore are simply no ones business but my own.
Occasionally, I end up back at my old church because I’m helping my mom out with something.
Most of the time, no one asks me why I left. No one seems to care except to invite me back, or to assume that I might be offended by prayer at an event. (Personally, I wonder why anyone bothers to try to invite me back if they think I’d be offended by praying people)
I don’t know how to answer them to this day, and I usually just sort of softly smile and nod in acknowledgement of their offer when someone invites me back… I think about the invitation.. if they really want me back at all… and think about what they’re saying. How much they “miss me”.
I really can’t stand the fact they say that when for years on end no one bothers to ask about me or mention my name. I deal enough with false friends on a day to day basis… I don’t need them in a place that is supposed to be spiritually fulfilling.
I figure that if they can’t talk to me when I was a member… and not when I’m away–but still easily accessible… then there’s no reason for them to suddenly begin, now. Two of the things that drive me away from the church was dishonesty and lack of real community. That hasn’t changed at all and I’m not in a rush to pretend like I’m going to find it there.
Hey RenateJames… that happened to me once. I was dismissed as the pastor. I went back to the church to get my stuff and everyone ignored me. These are normal, sane people. I figured that sometimes we just don’t know how to fit variables into our fairly solid worldview.
I figure that must be it, too
Like others here, I have several responses to this question, depending on who is asking. For acquaintances who I know are kind-hearted souls still inside the church, I talk about taking a break. Partly true. They do not deserve to hear the deeper story that could be construed as bitterness, and my goal is never to turn others away.
To folks whom I know a little better, I say that I do not feel that my mission on earth aligns with that of the corporate church. This is closer to the truth, but still incomplete.
The deepest truth is that I simply do not believe the mission and activities of the corporate church can be reconciled with the kindness, love, and generosity that are the core teachings of Jesus. I will say that I cannot know if there is an honest church out there. But can safely say that I have not experienced any church organization as a whole that would choose the unambiguous voice of God over their own petty existence. Maybe that sound harsh, but try this thought experiment: consider asking anyone well-connected in the local church to make this choice: Jesus or your organization. They know what they are supposed to do, they know He is the one to follow, but their comfortable existence does not allow for it. Where you sit every Sunday (and even more, how you live Monday to Saturday) answers the question for me.
To be fair, this last critique applies much more to pastors and church leadership than to the rank and file. Those kind-hearted souls I mentioned. They are simply living in the only system they understand. The only system they have ever been exposed to. And I cannot fault them for doing their best inside the world they know.
ps: this is my first post to TLS. Lurker since the very beginning though. If you read this far – thanks.
Hey Dave, Thanks for coming out of your lurking to post! Hope to hear more from you.
Thanks Dave. I can relate to what you have said. As an older person who has had an unusual journey I can relate to those people who have always been members of a particular church. Some of these people know that something isn’t quite right and are trying to encourage change from the inside – and I would suggest should not be discouraged from doing just that. Others simply attend without really thinking why. Then there are those of us (mostly younger than I am) who have been drawn away into what can only be described as a wilderness experience.
Look forward to hearing more of your story.
Thanks “lurking” Dave. I appreciate your posting. Glad you chimed in.
So Saturday after rehearsal for Sunday music I told the pastor/worship leader that this would probably be my last time playing. The real issue is not really with this particular organization. When I read many of the stories on TLS my heart really goes out to folks who clearly have had much more serious problems with the church than I have.
The reason I will not be there most Sundays is that I am involved with the music scene at a local secular venue, and a regular gig time has opened up from around 9-noon Sundays. I work with a few other followers who see this engagement in the secular world as ultimately a way to share the gospel. We are not singing Chris Tomlin, and probably never will, but everyone reading this (at least the believers) know there are many ways to share the gospel that are less direct, but no less effective.
Back to the pastor and the reaction. The first question was, where/when will you get “church”? This definition of church was explained to be: 1) teaching of the Word; and 2) the giving of the sacraments (baptism, communion). What I sensed was that a box was being drawn around “church” that required a leader (who could interpret scripture), but to be fair, this person does not need an MDiv degree. You can find ample new testament backing for these requirements for church. Who resolved disputes? Who is the anchor of the organization? When your secular friends disappear, we will still be here.
The question is, from a Christian, theistic perspective, can regular old, around-town community be church? Here at TLS, I expect the immediate answer to be “of course!” but I would prefer a more meaty answer. “I’d rather not hear this answer: “the wind in my hair on my Sunday bike ride lets me know God is present more than any sermon could.” No offense to those who feel that way (and many time I am one of them). But this cannot be just about your feelings or mine. Ultimately I believe we need to honor God in ways He desires. But outside of the Bible, I do not know where to go for information besides my own thoughts and feelings.
Hmmm. Maybe what I want is to draw a different box around church. That’s a scary thought.
You must be logged in to reply to this topic.