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AnonymousJo, I can completely understand that fear and discomfort. For me, it’s not about the possibility of becoming an atheist. That doesn’t scare me, partly because one of my very best real-life friends is an atheist and she’s one of the most moral, caring people I know. What scares me is becoming amoral, thinking that anything is ok. I was talking to my husband about the fact that so many people I know live their lives on the principle of doing no intentional harm. I want to both do no harm (intentional or otherwise) and actively do good. But I’m afraid that I will end up with too much uncertainty about what that means and whether there are any real moral codes.
Amy: You don’t sound like the kind of person who needs to worry about whether there are any real moral codes. It sounds like you’ve moved past the need for those.
AnonymousHm, yes, in a sense that’s true. I guess I mean more whether or not there’s any reason at all not to just live however I want, regardless of the consequences for others, as long as I’m not intending harm to them. I’m not certain that’s the best way to live, but I know plenty of people who do (including some who call themselves Christians). I think I fear that I will stop caring.
I hear that.
AnonymousHi Everyone!
I am brand-new to this forum and your words Jo, are the very first I’ve read. Your comment “What a huge relief to realize I am not responsible for anyone else’s spirituality!” really resonated with me. I have such respect for Christians (or any religion for that matter) that have respect of spiritual boundaries. I have been both rejected by my immediate Christian family members for not fitting their neat box anymore and both embraced by my Christian in-laws for being the kind of partner they always hoped their son would marry. My self-esteem has been a roller-coaster ride over the years but as I gravitate more and more to those that embrace me as I am, where I am I learn that not every Christian out there equates pain. For those that “get” that they’re not responsible for my spiritual walk, I applaud your humbleness. How arrogant to think otherwise!
AnonymousWelcome Honeyglow! Glad my words are evidence that not all “Christians” are narrow-minded and obnoxious!
This is a very unique, welcoming, accepting, safe place to share your journey. I look forward to hearing more from you.
Anonymousp.s. Honeyglow – I am so sorry your immediate family members have rejected you. That sucks!!
So glad at least your in-laws are accepting and supportive.
AnonymousThank you Jo. I have walked this journey nearly alone for about 15 years now. So nice to find a community of individuals that can relate because I still have wounds that need healing along with personal insight to offer. And I so look forward to further spiritual growth through the reflection process. It’s time!
Hi, Jo! Sorry it’s taken me so long to get back to this thread. It’s been a big family weekend, ending with Rosh haShana (still a family holiday, even if not a religious one for me.)
Identity is a tricky thing, y’know? One big mistake is to think that there is a stable, immutable “Essence of Me” that exists regardless of the other people around us. (If you want to see the results of that kind of thinking, just look at the Randian wing of libertarian philosophy, which is getting quite a lot of airing these days. A world which prizes selfishness and self-obsession is a bleak world indeed!)
The other danger (which you have been talking about in such perceptive words!) is to make oneself only a role within a community. You can try to make yourself “a good Christian witness”, or “an atheist”, but such a self is inevitably limited and sterile. You become like the Borg, with their simple programming: recognize “one of us” and, if the being in front of you fails that test, they must be assimilated!
For me, I am trying day by day to tear down much of what I’ve called “self”. My method is just to open up to other people, to demolish the barriers that keep me from listening to them, seeing their actions, touching their pain. I try to catch myself drawing back, closing up, pushing away, and then I try to stop that. Obviously it is an incremental process.
The strange thing is that this goes hand-in-hand with a strengthening of core certainties. I don’t know how that happens. In Christian terms, I suppose you can call it grace.
I’m not trying to lecture you, and I hope it doesn’t come off that way. I’m just saying, identity is a deep problem. I think you have grasped one of the great control levers of spiritual development. And I know there is a way forward to authenticity, even if I have not wholly reached it!
AnonymousThanks for getting back to me on that Shira. WOW – such powerful insights! I don’t take it as a lecture at all. I LOVE pondering all the various viewpoints from everyone.
“For me, I am trying day by day to tear down much of what I’ve called “self”. My method is just to open up to other people, to demolish the barriers that keep me from listening to them, seeing their actions, touching their pain. I try to catch myself drawing back, closing up, pushing away, and then I try to stop that.” Very helpful advice which I’m going to follow!
A few weeks ago I didn’t like feeling adrift without an identity. But the last few days I’ve been thinking maybe I don’t really want to end up with a “fixed” identity (“a stable, immutable “Essence of Me'” as you put it) anyhow. That would only put me back into a box, and I’ve had enough confinement in boxes to last 10 lifetimes!
Due to CFS, I don’t have the mental energy necessary to try to figure out which “category” or “label” (agnostic, atheist, Jewish, Buddhist, etc.) best describes me. That would have really bothered me before, but for once, lacking mental energy is actually going to work in my favor!
I’m just enjoying the freedom to hear and explore new ideas, keep what resonates with me, and not worry about things that don’t. (Not saying those ideas may not be accurate, just that I’m not at the point in my journey where they make sense to me yet.) I’m giving myself permission to allow myself to evolve and change, without worrying about where that may take me, and feels really GOOD!
You said, “I know there is a way forward to authenticity, even if I have not wholly reached it.” I couldn’t agree with you more! You go girlfriend!
One other thought…. Isn’t it ironic that Christianity/the church insists people to tear down “self” because “self” is supposedly bad, selfish, egotstical, and against God. But now that we have left the church we are having to tear down “self” because our true, God-breathed, very good, “self” has been so thoroughly contaminated with so much toxicity that we have to have to tear it down to make room for our good, original God-breathed, creative “self” to finally shine through, grow and evolve into our true, authentic “self”???
I’m glad you feel I was making sense and not just spouting nonsense, lol.
When you write, “I’m giving myself permission to allow myself to evolve and change, without worrying about where that may take me,” I think you have hit on exactly the right idea.
It occurred to me, when I was reading your post, that you can leave “self” out entirely and say (if you like) that you are seeking authenticity. What that means, I think, is alignment with the truth — the real, universal truth that is recognizable precisely because it so often surprises us.
AnonymousShira – I like your term “seeking authenticity.” That pretty much says it all. Thanks!
AnonymousWow! I am new here, but @honeyglow. I totally know what you mean. When I first met my husband’s (now divorced) parents who were camping together, but weren’t together, and are also conservative evangelicals, I dropped a few “f” bombs.” They loved me. But I know they took a few gulps. I think they are glad that I am who I am, but simultaneosly they invite us to church everytime they see us. They really can’t help themlseves.
I wish there was a spiritual respect that they could have towards the rest of us, but again, it’s built into the system. You can’t help but think that everyone you meet needs to be saved or to have your spiritual path. So I am now trying to be patient with that and respect that they have a handicap in that regard. Their eternity depends on it.
Thanks, for the sharing Jo.
I too for a long time was afraid of becoming an atheist.Now I think the anxiety has subsided a bit. But that is almost like another stage of the healing of the toxicity.
Much love to you on your journey! I can’t wait to dialog more.
Ashley
AnonymousHi Jo White,
Wanted to share the image that came to mind as I read your post. It was of a trapeze. You know how trapeze artists have to let go of the trapeze they are holding onto before the one coming toward them is within reach? There is a trust required there. A willingness to let go. When there is nothing there yet to grab. It is the only way to get to one trapeze to the next.
For my money, you are not working without a net. And we’re not just saying “Ohhhhhhhhhh” from the bleachers.
ChaseM
AnonymousLove the trapeze artist analogy – thanks Chase!
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