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And Emily…thank you for sharing your story. Many of us have benefited by your courage.
Gary – I’d like to send you a big dose of courage and peace as you think about addressing this issue and opening the conversation with your nephew. I have always been surprised, in challenging situations, at who shows up and wants to wade in. That willingness to wade into the conversation has the potential to be profound. I hear your desire to advocate for wholeness for your nephew and your family. Your love for them is apparent and will be a powerful healing force in this circumstance. I will have you in my thoughts. Peace.
AnonymousEmily – Thank you so much for taking the risk of being so vulnerable and honest with us – especially on such a difficult subject. YOU ROCK GIRL! You have given me a lot to think about. I may post some more later on this thread, but I’m pressed for time right now and I need to collect my thoughts first.
LOVED these two quotes from this thread (the first by Kathy and the second by “off the map”):
“Fear hates love because love challenges fear based traditions. Love transforms and evolves with us. It never changes it’s central characteristics though, of deep compassion and kindness toward others.”- Kathy
“When the true agenda of a conversation is to prevent intimacy we run into the sort of abusive manipulation that is dictatorial. It is not about you, it is about the fear the other person is managing. You get to be the target since they desperately want to divert attention from the target they have in their own hearts. We can all be guilty of this.” – “off the map”
Such amazing wisdom and insights – Thanks!!!Gary, {lease keep us posted on how it’s going with your nephew. I send you peace as you wade into the waters and journey with him.
AnonymousI can’t imagine how you felt in that situation, so I won’t try to say I do… but I appreciate your honesty and willingness to admit where you are in your life, especially with people who you may never meet (but when has that ever stopped us?). The one thing I have never understood in Christianity is the ability to say that “we love the sinner, but hate the sin” and the inability to actually do that. I spoke to my friend tonight, and we both agreed that if we just love people, we won’t have to worry about hating anyone’s sin to begin with. Even the other week, I wrote a status that said on FB that said:
What doesn’t make sense to me is I was told for years that the Gospel is offensive, yet when I look throughout the gospels and see the way that sinners flocked to Jesus and how the Pharisees and other religious leaders could not stand his teaching, I begin to wonder who the good news really offends after all.
While I am not implying you are or have been in sin (I have been breaking out of a lot of fundie mindsets lately, so bear with me, haha), it doesn’t change the fact that you’ve been treated as if your “sin” is offensive, and the only thing I find Jesus being offended by is the religiosity of the Pharisees and other leaders in that day, and I am sorry for all of the people who have sinned against you, because that’s the real issue here. So I don’t know where you are in your faith, but as I tell one of my best friends who is a questioning atheists: wherever you are, it’s okay. If there are some people who cannot love you for who you are, there will inevitably be people who do, and those are going to be the ones who will stick with you. I realize my comment isn’t the best, but just know that even though I don’t know you, I cannot stress how proud of you I am for opening up and being honest. Letting fear take over is a bunch of bullshit, and you’re already leaps and bounds ahead of most Christians I know. Go you!
Oh Emily, thank you SO MUCH for sharing what you did. This hits close to home for me, and I’m getting emotional reading through this thread. Your story shows that you are someone of courage and tenacity, but I can also hear the pain, frustration and shame that is there too.
For me, as a young gay Christian, it hasn’t been any direct attacks from the churches that I have attended (they were still painful in an indirect way – like the unwritten expectations and the clinging to literalism). But it’s my family that’s been the biggest source of pain and shame. I came out to my evangelical parents and siblings (3 older, all married) 2 years ago, and they’ve tried various methods to get me to “change” my “lifestyle”: Bible verses, prayer, threats, giving me books, suggesting courses and therapists I should go to. My parents actively support and donate to Living Waters, a major evangelical “sexual healing ministry” (aka gay reparative therapy). So it’s been a difficult few years, though I’m proud to have come out, and I’m feeling more confident in my own skin than ever before. I’m trying to maintain a relationship with my family, but it’s difficult knowing how much to stay close when that can tend toward spiritual/emotional abuse.
And yes, I can totally relate to the shameful feelings that can come up when going on dates. I didn’t allow myself to get into a relationship with anyone for years because I didn’t know how to open myself up emotionally, and would be too afraid of being out on the next level with my family – I was pretty sure that they would completely cut me off if I started dating. During that time, I was a wreck, I was depressed, and resorted to numerous unhealthy coping mechanisms just to get by – chiefly random hookups to find a brief (and secret) connection with someone.
What’s helped me a lot has been a lot of great, close friends that I’ve been out to and love me for who I am. Also, I’ve been going to therapists and counselors (legitimate ones, not the ones my family were suggesting) for the majority of the past 7 years. It’s a wonderful thing to be able to bare your soul to a trusted confidante and work through these life issues. In talking them over, I’ve found great insights at times and gained the confidence of knowing that I’m not alone. I just started my first ever relationship with a guy a couple months ago, and although it’s not easy because I find that I’m battling for headspace with the words of my family and their religious views. But I remind myself, that I need to be patient with myself and remember that I’ve already come a long way in gaining independence and confidence from even a year ago, and leaps and bounds from 3 and 4 years ago. It’s a journey. Not at all an easy one, and it’s not as if “the answers” suddenly appear, but I can definitely say that in the questions, I’ve learned so much about who I am, what kind of person I want to be, what I want my faith to look like, not allowing others to determine who I am, and choosing healthy companions for myself in this trek called life.
Emily, I honestly wish the best for you, and even though I don’t know you, I feel some kind of “soul sister” affinity with you
Blessings, Dan
P.s. I love Peter Rollins too! He came to my school a couple years ago to do a small conference, and I made sure to have a private conversation with him about the topic of being gay and the church. I remember really being encouraged by what he had to say, although I’m a little foggy on the specifics… I have his latest book, and it’s at the top of my reading list if I ever get some spare time to look at it!
I will follow up when I am able to get things going with my nephew. I am trying to establish a faceBook dialogue with him but he goes in spurts with his activity there. Still it seem like a safe place to use the private messaging away from prying eyes.
I had a roommate who was gay and decided to “come out” when I was in a religious school. I decided to remain his roommate because even though I’m straight, it didn’t seem all that scary. I have to admit that it took a while to get around to understanding that it wasn’t a choice. I also thought it was odd that his pastoral councilor decided to advise him to purchase a Playboy magazine as “treatment.”
It made sense to me that it would be as difficult for my roommate to choose to be attracted to women as it would be for me to choose to be attracted to men. It just isn’t there. I think I had brought a whole load of assumptions to the table and with male culture it’s already hard to see yourself as a man when you come out of being seen as a boy without the added message that you are “pretty.” There’s already a whole shitload of fear around sexuality as well without having to navigate the whole orientation question.
At that time I pretty much thought about girls 90 percent of the time. And when your Christian beliefs teach you that to even think lustfully about women is committing adultery you pretty much end up sinning most of the time. I think that helped me be sympathetic to my roommates plight because I didn’t really differentiate one sin as being worse than another.
What’s interesting is that my roommate still believes in god and I do not. He is still left with the mental theological gymnastics of trying to make sense of the Bible. I realized that it was a no win situation with the Bible and this was confirmed with years of trying to pray my way out of my natural instincts. The basic fact that it doesn’t work tends to motivate people to find out if the Bible really is the word of god.
Fortunately, for me, I am absolutely sure the Bible is made up by men and has no authority or insight that is particularly special. There is nothing beneficial in the bible that doesn’t exist in some form elsewhere and it is often much better stated elsewhere. And I don’t ask people to take my word for it, but invite you to investigate the large body of evidence available today on the internet.
Dear Emily:
Well, we are quite a collection of different people here. So many views. As a bisexual and a transsexual, as a follower of Jesus and as someone that loves the principles in the Bible, I want to offer some thoughts that have helped me.
In shortest summary: I offer that you should read the Book of Galatians, and substitute ‘circumcision’ with ‘heterosexual orientation’; and substitute ‘uncircumcision’ with ‘my gay/lesbian/bi-sexual orientation’. [Use similar terms whenever you encounter ‘two opposing concepts’ in Galatians.] That way, you can more clearly see the principles that Paul is presenting… after all, the ability to ‘transfer the principles’ from the Biblical situation to our present situation, is what (to me) makes the Bible incredible! <smile>
I offer that reviewing and chewing on the Book of Galatians will set you free from the cycle of shame. It is a powerful Book. The Holy Spirit will speak to your heart so many things from that one Book in the Bible. Give Him a chance to individually instruct you, k?
OK, Let me talk some more, for a moment.
Paul the Apostle wrote in Galatians, “I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard? Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort? [Gal 3]
Thus, Paul the Apostle begins his set of argumentation with this umbrella statement. As shown in the Book of Galatians, in reality, the Galatians did not wish to observe all the Law of Moses – they wished to observe only two parts of that Law, which was male circumcision (the removal of the foreskin) and the observance of some special holy days/feasts.
However, the umbrella statement by Paul (from Chapter 3, above) is pivotal in understanding human attempts to ‘circumcise’ an aspect of our own selves.
– To ‘circumcise’ is to remove something deep and intimate to us. It is a mark that is hidden to mankind in general but known to our sexual partner. It is something our ‘Jewish’ friends assume we have – but we may know quite otherwise.
– It is something that can be hidden under our ‘clothing’ when we desire to blend in with everyone.
– It is not our full identity (for we are more than just ‘circumcised’ or not); but it is a major part of our identity that we cannot deny when we are ‘alone and naked’ and look into the mirror.
So, let us have some fun, and create some insightful ‘translations’ from the Book of Galatians for the circumcised (hetero) vs the uncircumcised (lesbian/gay/bisexual). I’ll do a couple ‘translations’, and then anyone else on this thread can give it a try, k? I am using the New International Version in the ‘Original’, then my personal translation in ‘Rewrite’, and then adding my ‘Thoughts’. Again, anyone can join in. Remember that Paul is testy and frustrated when he wrote this particular letter, so add in some feistiness! Here we go <smile>:Original: “You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you?” [Gal 3:1]
Rewrite: “You foolish believers that happen to be lesbians, gays, and bisexuals, [let me ask:] who is falsely instructing you to remove your sexual orientation?”
Thoughts: The teachers of ‘circumcise your sexual orientation’ are avoiding scripture and reasoning. They are using slight-of-hand to persuade you. They are not like an apostle – they are like a witch. To ‘cut off’ our sexual orientation is circumcision. First, it just won’t happen in reality – even Exodus International admits that 99.99% of gay believers will never become heterosexual believers. The best they offer is learning to become celibate, and live alone forever fighting your own self… but they hide that horrible reality under spell-binding words and oratory. They are indeed bewitching you.Original: “For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love. … Neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything; what counts is the new creation. Peace and mercy to all who follow this rule – to the Israel of God.” [Gal 5:6 and 6:15-16]
Rewrite: “For in Christ Jesus neither being hetero or non-hetero has any value. Get over it. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love. [Didn’t catch that the first time? I’ll say it again as I close out this letter:] Neither being hetero or non-hetero means anything; what counts is the new creation that you already have. Peace and mercy to all who follow this rule [and not the Law]. And yes, peace and mercy to the true Israel of God [which you are]!”
Thoughts: This sums up the intent of the Book of Galatians. We’ve got to move away from this ‘singular debate of Christianity’, ‘this most important question of all time’, this ‘cultural war for the righteousness of legal definitions’ – and move back to presenting the cross that was endured by the Messiah for all people. If you are hetero, so what. If you are gay, so what. What matters is faith that shows in love… and God will pour out His peace and mercy on all who follow this priority.
AnonymousCaryn – LOVED both of your Scriptural interpretations! RIGHT ON! I have always loved the book of Galatians -especially Gal.5:1 which says,
“It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavary.”
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