This topic contains 42 replies, has 12 voices, and was last updated by 
-
Posts
-
In this scenario if I do something good or something good happens then god gets the credit. If I screw up then it’s my fault and I didn’t pray enough or the right prayer or I wasn’t sincere enough or I didn’t believe enough, etc.. And I don’t really get why this “great” god needs to be reminded that he’s great all the time. What would make more sense is for god to make sure the baby doesn’t need medical care in the first place. Does god hold our children ransom until we pray properly? I guess he doesn’t care about the babies who die. In fact if it’s god doing the deciding here, then god is practicing abortion.
There are so many problems with this world view of prayer.
One point that I was reminded of tonight was the claim that the god of the Bible is all knowing and yet has a free will. Now if god knows the future then god isn’t deciding. This god is obligated to do the very thing he sees in the future if he is to meet the claim of seeing the future. As soon as this god chooses a different path then the one he saw in the future then he proves he can’t see the future. He can’t be all knowing and have free will at the same time. This would be certain proof that this god does not exist. It doesn’t prove that there is no god in general, but it does prove there is no god as described in the Bible.
I’m loving following this discussion. Thanks.
AnonymousMe too!!
Richard – You make so much sense sometimes it scares me (that I will end up an athiest too.) But that might not be such a bad thing. Sure beats all the crazy mental gymnastics so many parts of Christianity require!)
AnonymousI couldn’t agree more. Just now, my husband and I were buttering and jamming up our scones with the jam he made over the past two summers from berries on our property. I said how good the jam was, what a good job he did and he replied with, “WE did a good job.” To which I replied, “Um, NO, YOU did a good job. You grew the berries, picked the berries, washed the berries, prepared the berries, cooked the berries, canned the berries. You made the jam. YOU did a good job.”
He replied, “Well I was just trying to say, we’re married and it was a team effort.” So I just gave him a haughty look of derision a la Sheldon Cooper. Because that’s ridiculous. I love the man, but this makes me crazypants.
And I know it’s a trigger for me because of what’s being discussed in this thread. Give credit where credit is due. Assign responsibility to the proper people. Does my husband think that if the jam tasted badly that I would take credit for that too?
I wonder if most Christians really believe that God answers prayer. Or is that whole praising the Almighty for everything jargon that they use just part of their believers identity? When in need, rushing to the doctor or the hospital can be a smart thing to do but it is not exactly showing confidence in the power and help of God. It’s a good thing that most people are more practical than ethereal when it comes down to the every day circumstances of life. However there are all ways some who are bat sh*t crazy.
P.S. Scones and jam sounds great!
tschott wrote -
“Does my husband think that if the jam tasted badly that I would take credit for that too?”
That is too funny, but it’s right on. What a perfect illustration. My wife and I laughed out loud when I read that one. My wife Karey says, “Right on girl!”
Richard
AnonymousHi all
Just reading through all the posts here and it is really shocking – so sorry to hear how hard it has been for so many of you to just be yourself around your friends and family. Thankfully for me, I live in a country where being deeply religious is relatively uncommon – I don’t know many people who are. I do however spend a lot of time working in countries in Africa where almost everyone is deeply religious – and where the born-again churches are particularly strong. When I am there, I am open about my lack of belief – I have this weird hope that by seeing that someone CAN be normal and even nice without being a christian that it might help people to be a bit more open to that possibility. I think it is a bit easier for me to be honest about this though since I am an outsider there. I know a couple of atheists/agnostics from those countries and they have such a hard time – people just can’t believe that someone might NOT believe in the stuff that is so central to their lives.
Anyway, big hugs to you all and I especially liked what @tschott said – that the responsibility for how people feel about who you are, does not rest on your shoulders.
K
AnonymousThe scones were fantastic. We buy the Fair Scone mix but it’s expensive – almost $6 a box at local grocery stores – so we keep a lookout for it at Costco when they sell 4 boxes for $7 and then we stock up. We used our last bag this morning. Us and our first world problems. We could put the delicious jam on plain old toast but we’ve built up this jam so much that only the most proper pastry will do, apparently. We need to get over ourselves.
@Richard – I’m glad I gave you and your wife a chuckle. I’m usually laughing at myself and hoping others are too, so you made my day.
@Kirsty – I’m going to Arizona in March, where I’m from. I’m not wanting to assume what others know about the state of Arizona, so I’ll just say that it’s extremely conservative (generalizing here) and they’ve been tying to outdo Texas in their approach to going back to the days of the Wild, Wild West. I was there on President Obama’s first inauguration and let’s just say the mood in the local Starbucks that morning was not celebratory.
Anyhoo, my point is that I haven’t been home in over three years. The idea of going back makes me uncomfortable. The last few times I was back, I had to hide – no, scratch that – I chose to hide who I had become because I was scared. Going back this time is different for me. I’m “out” with my mother and I will be seeing her and despite the rocky relationship we’ve had these past three years, I’m finally to a point that I can honestly say, I just love her. I love her where she’s at. I love her regardless of whether she loves me back in the same way. She can say or do anything while I am there and I will choose to completely ignore it, as I would a three year old misbehaving to get my attention. I’m only there for a short amount of time and then I get to go home to my haven and peace. I’m bringing my peace with me and people can either partake of it or not. That’s their decision.
But it is nice and gives a different perspective when we know we’re not in a place for very long. We can be more open because there feels like less to lose. But as my perspective is slowly changing, I’m realizing this is actually true of us no matter where we are or for how long we are there. We simply can’t be sure that where we are is permanent or long-term. Neither are any of our relationships guaranteed in the same way. The only person and place I’m stuck with is myself. This body. And even that isn’t a sure thing from one moment to the next.
Well, now I’m babbling. I do that sometimes. I feel like I’m on the verge of an epiphany and then poof, it melts away. Oh well. Those come and go too.
That’s rough. The mindset of Christians who shut people out who are not is so foreign to me. Jesus went to the outcasts and marginalized and we don’t know if they all became believers. He often said “Your faith has healed you” but did they keep that faith, did it ebb and flow, did they share what Jesus did for them or go rob somebody?
Of course many want to believe everyone Jesus came into contact with became a Christian (which wasn’t even a concept yet b/c Jesus was a Jew) but the truth is that we don’t know. But Jesus did what he did anyway.
The whole “separated for and separated from” has become very preverted. The early Christian communities lived by their rules but were very involved in helping the poor, treating the sick, visiting the imprisoned, etc. Instead we are seeing a movement where Chrisitans embrace selfishness, don’t want to contribute to society through taxes, want to make Christianity the official religion of the United States and some even want non-Christians to leave.
Although I am more of an agnostic at this point, I still feel attached to Christianity and believe the faith calls people to reach out and help those who are less fortunate, regardless of the recipient’s faith.
Just catching up now. There are so many great comments that have triggered many thoughts.
I love the moniker ‘Agnostic Believer’ – it’s like ‘reverent agnostic’ do you think? I like your words about reaching out – agree.
I know what it’s like living the ‘double life’, I feel that I did for a very long time. I guess I like being a bit of a sceptical smart ass, and typically have never liked being defined or labelled. So I’ll give a non-committal answer when asked about my faith, or something really extensive with lots of linguistic effrontery, and be confusing to most. I probably come across as being flaky or double-minded or something, but I think (naively I suppose) that I’m worth getting to know without the up-front label. I try to look at others wholistically, and wish the same could be done to me. It depends on my audience, as to whether someone has known me or my family in the past. Sometimes I’ll say I’m “Christian-ish”, or, ‘no, I don’t identify as Christian – the brand has been trashed’ or “I don’t believe in organised religion aka ‘Holy Motors’ style”. When I’m really pressed I start singing “little boxes” to myself mentally.
Truthfully, I’m in the ‘seeker’ category, and probably fit in with the ‘nones’ at the moment which means different things to different folks. I live my life without faith, but there is definitely a yearning for ‘something more’. I don’t have any close relationships where I feel someone has ‘got my back’ so it could be related to that. I do feel a sense of grief that I’ve ‘ditched’ the faith of my family, but I am trying to embrace that and be okay with it.
I think there’s less hostility to the label agnostic than atheistic. Agnostic seems to denote scepticism with the possibility for faith, but atheistic may mean ‘my mind is made up’. I think Christians can be better behaved around agnostics because they think there’s still room for persuasion, but have less graciousness with atheists as they’ve often done their homework and can be formidable intellectuals to boot. Does this ring true to others? It’d be good to have a discussion about these terms are used and if they mean the same thing to all? Sorry if this discussion has already occurred and I’ve missed it.
Oh, and Facebook I’ve ditched it and many of my friends don’t use it anymore either. It’s great to be a in a cohort who are not focussed on documenting their lives in their way. Nothing to do with being a Luddite. It gave me too much grief and I felt I was unhealthily comparing myself to others. Back to one-on-ones and old fashioned email and even snail mail with funky cards as I love to keep handwriting (but don’t write anything TOO personal inside as they are so funky they often go up on display on fridges and mantlepieces and get read by all and sundry!)
Oh, and a quick PS – I haven’t read through any other of the ‘agnostic/atheist’ threads, so happily to be pointed in any directions where to read or go etc. I remember servantgirl discussing this early in the history of LS, but I’ve been away and only just come back to LS. How to find older threads easily?
Lastly, Tana, Moxierocks and Hugh all mentioned depression. Ja, I’m there too. I found this blogsite recently where he beautifully described just what depression looks like. He gets it.
http://www.warwickrendell.com/2008/09/17/depression-in-my-own-words/
The commenters were an interesting bunch, this one guy ‘Dixon’ wrote some words in response to the post that just made him so lovable to me ! I have cut and pasted his comment below:
“Thank you for your description. It’s dead on.
I’ve tried everything, and it don’t work. I only feel alive when either playing something improv (I’m a gigging musician), writing bawdy songs or when writing a really coherent blog entry…thank God for music.(For those who take the ‘suck it up’ position: sorry. I don’t do ‘self satisfied prig’ very well…neither do I speak ‘Massengillian”.
However, if you were to be suddenly stricken with the shit we all deal with, I could help you make it through more difficult days/weeks/months/years than you can imagine, but I won’t. You can just ‘suck it up’, right?)My mother in law has had more ECT treatments than anyone can count. All it did for her is turn her brain into squirrel-scat…in fact, we know when she’s feeling ‘normal’ when she complains about wanting to die. Not fun for her or anyone else.
All I know is that depression sucks ass, and I do NOT choose it. It chose me, though–how lucky can one boy be? Why couldn’t I have been chosen by something easier to deal with, like heroin?
At least horse has a hipster factor that makes money (if you play guitar, at least). Depression only breeds bitter masturbators that troll blogs…umm…waitaminnit…Seriously–thank you for the article.”
Helene – that was a good suggestion for a topic.
Just posted here – http://www.thelastingsupper.com/topic/believers-agnostics-and-atheists
AnonymousHelene – I get where you are coming from – especially on the Facebook thing. The only reason I go on there is to see new pictures of my little grandson, but I can’t stand the rest of it. I mean, do I really need to know that one of my friends just went to K-Mart? Seriously – WHO CARES!!! GET A LIFE! I prefer e-mail and snail mail too.
.jpg){kind=avatar}
You must be logged in to reply to this topic.