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TANA!!
I was going to pretend to be mad..but I decided not to. Okay, so I admit, when I was first reading it it did “sting a bit” as you said. But then something dawned on me. I WAS TRAINED TO THINK THE WRONG WAY. I was almost always taught that MY actions ALWAYS have the potential to “cause others to stumble”. That type of thinking leads to all kinds of anxiety about making a misstep, and has obviously become a ghost in my head. Not to say that I don’t believe that my words and actions can have consequences for myself and others…but I don’t need to be OBSESSED with worrying about it 24/7. I CAN leave responsibility where it belongs, and not put it all on myself. THANK YOU FOR REMINDING ME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 
(((((HUGS)))))
@Hugh ~ I’m so so sad you are separated from your son and grandbabies. :'( My heart goes out to you! I too, am “pissed off with religion” and I’m struggling with a lot of thoughts and feelings that I most often have no clue how to process.
@starfielder ~ It’s so true! I’m so glad we are not alone. I am so glad to have all of you here to share with and listen to each of your perspectives..I love you all, and I mean that! (((((HUGS))))))
@starfielder…I kinda love “heh heh heh fcuk you!”
Anonymous@moxierocks – I know, it stings, but then it’s so freaking freeing! Holy crap it’s freeing.
And exactly – we were trained to think about our relationship to other people in wrong ways. In unhealthy ways. “Accountability” is a dirty word to me, depending in which context I hear it. I didn’t know it at the time, but I was allowing the church to do a real number on me with the whole accountability concept.
Ultimately I am accountable to myself and why shouldn’t that be enough? I’m my own worst critic! I can’t go around worrying about how other people respond to me. I can’t understand their worldview or perspective because it’s theirs. They’re responsible for how they react in their world and I’m responsible for mine. Can we influence each other? Sure, but again, ultimately I make the decision to allow myself to be influenced so results are on me.
Lordy I could talk about this for DAYS. So I’ll stop. But yeah – freedom in all its forms, Moxie.
Anonymous@Hugh – I’m so sorry. There are no words when parents turn against their children or when children turns against their parents. And when children are caught in the middle of it – heartbreaking.
Tana, I like what you said… I believe those are called boundaries! Oh people so don’t like them when it means “no” you can’t speak to me about “accountability.” In the church I recently exited they called it “reconciliation” but what it really meant was “come talk with us so we can tell you all the things that are wrong with you and about you and you need to agree and ask forgiveness and act like a whipped puppy in order for us to include you in our club.” It feels bad sometimes to say no because it seems like it is against the “christian” loving response. But actually it’s LIBERATING. At least that is what I keep telling myself as I journey out of this painful and gross experience. Peace.
Thanks for your sympathies. It means so much more coming from this community of the real. I don’t know if anything really prepares us for the personal calamities that come out of left field. We just have to hang on for dear life
I used to pray and have faith that all things were working out for the better. Now it feels a lot like the misguided loyalty of a child to an abusive father. There is so much suffering in the world that it is hard to believe that an almighty and loving god is in control. Religion is a comfort for a lot of people but when it fails you (or seems to) it can be devastating. Still trying to process this. In the mean time I am trying to enjoy some of the simple pleasures of life. Life is not all bad. Hey, we got the lastingsupper too!You got it Hugh! Sending hugs. (((Hugh)))
I’ve been “out” to everyone for a number of years. That is one of the reasons I wrote my blog. It forced me to be “out.” It was so bad at one point when my parents didn’t know that I would throw up violently for a couple days after visiting my parents. When this became a yearly “ritual” I know my body was telling me I couldn’t continue to be dishonest.
It was difficult because I knew my father would take responsibility for my leaving because that is part of the belief system. I wrote him a rather extensive email explaining that I left in the pursuit of truth. I didn’t leave because I wanted to live in the world which offered the “pleasures of sin.” He wrote back apologizing that he wasn’t smart enough to answer my questions. I knew it would be hard because he had literally given his life to the Seventh Day Adventist Church and to hear the “truths” that I explained would mean his life would be considered “meaningless” to him. It was a mixed bag because I could tell he was proud of my integrity, but his belief system had so fucked with his mind he didn’t have a way out. My father was very sensitive and had to keep a lot of secrets because of his positions of responsibility within the church. He was very inclusive and non judgmental. He suffered from some pretty poor treatment by the church organization because of this and yet he still continued to be very loyal to its mission. I admired these qualities about him, but I determined that I would not let anyone treat me so badly without speaking up. I learned this from his suffering and observed how silence perpetrated the very things he was trying to prevent. The last time I spent with him was sailing together. I took him sailing for his first time and we had a good time together just sailing. I called him to invite him and my mother to Thanksgiving dinner and he was out on the golf course with his friends and really sounded excited that I had invited them. This was the last time I talked with him.
My mother is in denial. She basically talks to me as if I’m still a believer. My brothers still believe that I will come back eventually even though I have told them repeatedly that I know too much. The Christian religion will never be believable to me. It is a matter of integrity and commitment to what is true. The emperor has no clothes and I can’t imagine them on again. I took the red pill and the illusion is broken.
The sorrow this brings to me was, at times, almost unbearable. I see how my brothers and my mother suffer from their belief system even though they continually say how wonderful it is. I understand why they have to do this because I used to there. It took me years to undo the knee jerk shame that permeated everything in my world view. What I noticed after I told the truth is that I no longer threw up for two days after being with any of my family.
I had to learn how to be very precise in my language because many of my clients are devout Christians and know that I’m atheistic to Christianity and am an agnostic. I simply share my reasons without attacking them. It is much harder when someone knows you as a person. An atheist ceases to be this undefined evil group. And the work I do is very respected in my community and it has changed people’s lives profoundly.
Methods of explaining and finding meaning have improved greatly in the last few years with thought leaders like Sam Harris and Christopher Hitchens. The corner really turned from me when I went up to a Freedom from Religion conference in Seattle a couple years ago. Everybody there was so happy. I had a great time with a lot of really smart people. It has taken a while and I’ve settled in to being a non-believer. There were times when I had to stare in the abyss of the loss of meaning. I learned that I only suffered when I invested too much in my ego.
I applaud the honesty of all of your sharing. This is not an easy journey, but it is preferable to living in two minds.
You guys are all so amazing here.
I’ve had a few hours to think about this post and it amazes me how much of ourselves we sacrifice to make others happy. I’m pretty fearless, vocal, and open about the way I’ve chosen to live my life. I’m also the type of person who has no problem moving 3000 miles from my closest relative because I know I can’t tolerate them for extended periods of time. But we’re adults. We should be able to worship or not worship freely, without fear of condemnation, rejection, discriminination, or abandonment. It really pisses me off that so many have to live double lives because of their lack of faith, or even for having doubts and questions about their beliefs. It breaks my heart that people are hurting here because their loved ones cannot see past religion and accept and love them unconditionally.
There was a time when I felt religion was divisive, but it’s really the religious – at least some of them. Most of you here are people of faith, who I cannot imagine turning on someone for their stance on faith. I’m still really close friends with most of the people I attended church with. I no longer believe, but they don’t love me any less for it. Our relationships were forged on things stronger than the church. It seems incomprehensible that members of our families would be the cause of us not living open honest lives!
Sorry just needed to rant a little. I don’t hide my atheism, but really why the hell should anyone have to?
Servantgirl, I’m seriously about to move far away from my relatives! I admire your fearlessness and openness! I’m not quite there…but I know that I’ve changed a LOT over the last few years and am heading in that direction. I agree, religious people are more divisive than religion itself..but I have to say, at least in my experience, that the core doctrines of a religion that a person clings to have a lot to do with how they behave. (this may seem like I’m putting on my Captain Obvious hat at the moment, but, bear with me…) Some of the doctrines that exist in certain churches make it almost IMPOSSIBLE for anything other than division to happen. That is not true of all religions at all. I didn’t know this, though, while I was yet entrenched in the divisive doctrines of my upbringing…I was told how to view other religions as well: with contempt for their “falsehood.” I was informed that all of “them” (people of other religions) viewed me in the same way (which is also not true of all other religions). That put me and all those who believed as I did on the defensive, and it created a massive wall between “US” and “THEM”, which is now nothing more than an invisible fence IMO. All of us are on a journey. I hope that more and more and more people escape the misleading, divisive religions. Anyway, I hope you understand what I was trying to express there.
And servantgirl…RANT AWAY! Anytime!
You’re right..we shouldn’t have to hide our atheism! I can’t wait until I’m totally ready and able to be “out” for good. I’m kind of a “baby atheist” haha!Yesterday we went to a hospital and visited my young niece who had given birth to a 4.1 lb baby boy. It was an emergency birth as my niece was very ill with toxemia. Today we visited a friend in hospital who earlier had fallen and cut his chin while in Costa Rica. He received medical care there. He flew home but had to be hospitalized here in critical care because of infection. In both of these cases they would have died except for modern medical science advances. People will give praise to God for saving their lives but modern science will be somewhat ignored in the credit department. And I will have to say little about it so that I don’t come across as being anti-God.
That’s an interesting word. “anti-God.” I have been accused of being anti-God and I usually have to point out that I can’t be against something I don’t believe is there. That would mean there are a lot of people out there who are anti-unicorns and anti-pixies. And the people who are anti-Zeus are really in trouble.
ha ha ha Richard! anti-unicorn and anti-pixie! nice.
@Hugh ~ All three of my children would not be here if medical science and technology was not what it is. I wouldn’t be here…I nearly died when my oldest had to be taken my emergency c-section..both of my two older girls were under 5 pounds at birth. And my youngest would most certainly be dead..the doctors didn’t even expect her to live at all anyway..she was born 3 months early and weighed less than ONE POUND..she was 14 ounces. She is walking and talking and playing like any other 3 year old now. The thing is, I do believe that science, medical advancements and round the clock care saved her life..I also believe that she felt my love and warmth and passionate WILL for her little life to go on. I was still a believer in God at the time, and I prayed all the time. But in all that, I never felt HIM with me. People would say, “See what God is doing for you? See how God is with you, and with her?” And I would go along with it because it was what I ALWAYS had done. But I know now that I never really believed it. I had an argument with my older brother once when she was still in the hospital about whether God or science had saved her life. I remember telling him that since God created their bodies and brains and given the docs and nurses the desire to become such, that God still deserved glory for it. But even then I felt like what I was saying was a pre-packaged, thoughtless answer. On this side of things, without “giving God glory” for any of it, I am FASCINATED by the things that they do for these tiny babies! I couldn’t see it before because I was busy pleasing my circle of peers who thought prayer saved my baby..their prayers. And that’s all they did was pray..no helpful hands or leaning shoulders through the hardest time of my life as a parent so far. Just prayers.
@Richard ~ I really love that. It makes so much sense to me! I’m totally anti-tooth fairy.
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