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This is a video of an interview with Atheist Blogger Sharif Ahmed. He was tortured and nearly killed for his lack of belief. Even though this is happening in Muslim countries, it was not that long ago that Christians were doing the same thing. It seems that the Abrahamic based religions have a tendency toward violence.
In this time of freedom of speech I think we atheists and agnostics are more sensitive to anything that looks like censorship because the violence taught in the holy books of both Islam and Christianity is still there. There are certainly progressive believers in both Christianity and Islam, but they are often more interested in sustaining the reputation of their various religions than in condemning the violence.
Hitler massacred millions of Jews because he didn’t want them polluting his country, the Ottomans drove hundreds of thousands of Armenians into the Syrian desert to starve to death during World War 1 because of racial hatred and the fear that they were plotting to take over the country, the IRA murdered thousands of civilians over a thirty year long ‘terror campaign’ out of political defiance against Britain for the policies in Northern Ireland, the Romans would crucify hundreds of a defeat enemy army and string them up on the road to Rome simply to show their dominance. I could go on. I just don’t know why the Abrahamic religions are picked on so much for the violence demonstrated within its history when history is splendor with incredible acts of violence from all sectors of humanity.
We could pick out all the examples whereby mere politics has influenced the death of countless lives and start protesting against governmental control. I was just coming to the close of studying a history module in university entitled ‘Religion in history’ which examines from an unbiased perspective, its influences. And whereas a great deal of conflict arose from such principles, almost every single time, there were other vitally important agendas involved. People used the concepts of religion to enact violence the same way as secular aspects such and money, politics and greed can be used.
Another vital point you have to remember is that the Bible was written by people, and the Old Testament is an account of historical battles and blood-shed that took place in history, when a LOT of ancient battles took place at the time, that’s just what happened at the time when there was a very limited sense of diplomacy. Whether God was behind such battles and bloodshed is a mystery, because the Bible is not inerrant. Religion is a cause of violence at times, because religion is a man-made, and its humanity which lies at the core blame. We should stop blaming religion and start blaming ourselves.
The key difference in Islam and Christianity is you have holy books that outline violent solutions. Until these books are discredited as any type of wisdom writings you are always going to have people interpreting them literally and carrying out violence in god’s name.
If we keep saying, well they aren’t interpreting them right, we are still endorsing them as legitimate guides for our lives.
Wouldn’t it be better to simply take the good principles out of them and establish that independently?
Very interesting, Richard. I love reading the comments under articles about violence in Africa and the Middle East that talk about how “those” people are not civilized. Unfortunately violence knows no cultural boundaries and it seems like the religions in power or those fighting for power are the ones who use their faith to justify horrific acts. That includes Christianity.
Anonymous@Richard I am considering blogging on this topic. So many folks tell me that you can’t pick and choose what you want from the Bible, but you must take it all as the Holy Word of God. I say bullshit. We don’t do this with any other literature right? If the Bible is merely a library of books from a certain era in time that references supposed encounters with God, who says we cannot pick and choose the books and stories that we most identify with and leave the rest behind? Not even the Bible calls for a complete buy-in of every book, every story. When I hear stories of a warring Hebrew nation claiming God told them to kill every man woman and child, I see this as cautionary at best. This account for me is a warning of just how far man will go to justify war, murder and genocide. It is tragic. It is also wrong. Is there good stuff in this library? I think so, but there is also stuff we could easily leave behind in lieu of more current and relevant stories, books, accounts, etc… That’s my opinion anyway..
@John Is there good stuff in this library? I think so, but there is also stuff we could easily leave behind in lieu of more current and relevant stories, books, accounts, etc… That’s my opinion anyway..
Exactly. Let’s take the best knowledge available and quit giving the Bible a special consideration. This idea that iron age men could come up with better ideas, considering that none of them had the cosmological understanding we have today, is no longer tenable. To me, there is still too much magical thinking around holy books.
Books are in a very human form. It’s human language and it’s a human system of thought. To think that language in any form could contain reality, let alone divinity, is a monumental reduction.
@AgnosticBeliever Unfortunately violence knows no cultural boundaries and it seems like the religions in power or those fighting for power are the ones who use their faith to justify horrific acts. That includes Christianity.
You are exactly right. Just recently American Evangelicals provided support in Uganda to institute a death penalty for homosexuality. They want to establish a theocracy.
I don’t think that is likely in the United States, but I don’t even want it to be close and that is why many atheists are speaking up. We have well funded organizations whose stated intent is to establish the United States as a Christian nation.
Here is a full interview by Rachel Maddow of David Bahati the sponsor of the Anti Homosexuality law that includes a death penalty in Uganda.
And the murder of David Kato
AnonymousWe need to teach peace as one of the most central points of the Christian faith. We must stop teaching any sort of acceptance for violence. But that will upset everyone who hits their kids, soooo…….it’s a hard line in the sand of our desert philosophy. How to tell the violently inclined they need to lay it all down and turn from all their violent ways. Men, particularly militarily indoctrinated men are in real trouble with this one. Philosophy is crucial and most don’t have the ability to hold such complex conversations with themselves. All we can do is hold the line of peace and teach it. We have to show them how to walk it. It’s a huge moment for our Nation right now. We have so many angry and frightened violent people in churches and out. Our nation needs to really be talking about peaceful revolution not AK47 supported revolution. The Church is divided again, like never before over this dedication to violence in the form of gun proliferation in our nation among our congregations of fundamental faiths. This is a very important discussion. I look forward to reading what other contributions to this thread hold. I really can’t stress enough the importance of this subject, right now in our nation.
Anonymous@Kathy I love peace, but more than peace I think the core message of the Gospel – of the teaching of our church has to be Human Dignity for all. Evangelicals can support death sentences for gay Africans, because they do not view Homosexuals or Africans as people. Until we see all human beings as valuable members of God’s world (Christians I mean), nothing will change. This was the central message of Jesus, but it is like a meme that @Moxierocks posted today on Facebook:
“To most Christians, the Bible is like a software license. Nobody actually reads it. They just scroll to the bottom and click “I Agree.” – Bill Maher
I believe any type of violence should always be a last resort. But I also believe that pacifism carried to the extreme often results in becoming the victim of violence. It is easy to say we should never take up arms in battle. Yet many genocides have taken place because those with the ability to stop the perpetrators have chosen not to and become somewhat culpable themselves. I am in no means justifying personal or national aggression. But I do believe there are extremist radicals in the world who will never respond to peace efforts. I also believe there are criminal elements in our population who will, given the opportunity, harm and destroy my family and steal. This is one of the reasons why I strongly support the 2nd amendment. As a law abiding citizen who believes in peace first…no one needs fear my guns unless they are intent on doing me or my loved ones harm. (Boy here is a hot button issue that could test our community, though I think we all respect each other enough not to let it)
The danger is not our guns but rather, as John was referring to, a lack of dignity in the way we view others.
@John “To most Christians, the Bible is like a software license. Nobody actually reads it. They just scroll to the bottom and click “I Agree.” – Bill Maher
This is such a great quote. In terms of violence it’s interesting that Jesus actually promotes a victim type mentality. In Matt 5:39 Jesus says….
But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also. And if anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, hand over your coat as well. If anyone forces you to go one mile, go with them two miles. Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.
And right after this Jesus says…
“You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be children of your Father in heaven.
In addition at his own trial he refused to give a defense. All Jesus had to say was that he taught people to give unto Caesar what was Caesar’s and that he taught people to not resist the Roman rule. Instead Jesus stays silent and ends up being crucified. And if Christians are to follow the example of Jesus, how come they are the most vocal about the right to commit violence both individually and nationally?
I happen to disagree with Jesus strongly on this issue. I do think Jesus teaches people to be victims.
But that’s the problem with religions based on holy books. How much of the Bible can you throw out and still be a Christian?
This issue seems to be central to Christianity, because the teaching to love your enemies is a pretty major statement by Jesus and it’s based on passivity.
@Richard, In terms of violence it’s interesting that Jesus actually promotes a victim type mentality.
This is true, and yet in the temple we read where Jesus commits violence…
[Jesus] made a whip out of cords, and drove all from the temple area, both sheep and cattle; he scattered the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables. John 2:15And in several other places Jesus seems to promote the use of violence…
“Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.” Matthew 10:34
[Jesus] “said to them, “But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don’t have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one…” The disciples said, “See, Lord, here are two swords.” “That is enough,” he replied.” Luke 22:36,38
“He has sent me to bring good news to the poor, to proclaim liberty to the captives and to set the oppressed free” Luke 4:18
It is clear that Jesus promoted pacifism, and in fulfilling His own purpose He CHOSE martyrdom for a specific purpose so that example never seemed applicable to me. What I see in Jesus teaching is a clear promotion of non-violence that is contextually sensitive enough to recognize when the principle should be set aside in lieu of a greater need. (I.E., Setting captives free)
But I totally agree with you that Christians often times seem to embrace the use of violence as a solution rather than an extremely rare and unfortunate last resort. This is one of the reasons why I struggle with any type of literalist approach to the bible. No matter what position one desires to support, that support can certainly be found. (Even to portray Jesus as an extreme pacifist…
) Then all one has to do is be willing to rip the passage out of context, ignore all of the contradictory passages, and proclaim God’s blessing on whatever atrocities (be they physical or emotional) they wish to commit.Oh and I agree, that is an awesome quote by Bill Maher!
AnonymousI think that we need not mix politics and government with what Jesus said to do. In my opinion governments and nations do not act nor are they expected to act like a follower of Jesus. Therefore people when they encounter each other on a one to one basis living as Jesus prescribes do not go to war with each other. They love each other and recognize the humanity and the in-built goodness in each other. So when he speaks of turning the other cheek or loving enemies or do not resist, he is speaking from a third perspective that says, do not handle these situations like everyone expects you to. Try to see the evil person, the enemy, the pursuer as a person — like you. Treat them this way, then see if the situation changes. As far as him not fighting for his life, well of course that was a fight with the government or powers that be, of which Jesus was not about. Why bother, when the outcome would still be the same. I think he understood the complexities. That is if he ever existed in reality.
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