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@John. I think that we need not mix politics and government with what Jesus said to do. In my opinion governments and nations do not act nor are they expected to act like a follower of Jesus.
I think that is a great observation John. In fact one of my real beefs with the Christian Right is their belief that they should seek to impose “Christian values” on our nation through legislation and political pressure. This has always struck me as a huge diversion from the gospel.
I’m still wondering why we have to run everything through the Bible?
If you can use the Bible to present any position you want, why don’t we simply go straight to reason and skip the whole bible thing?
What makes something Christian if you pick and choose what you want to believe from the Bible?
It kind of makes the claim of being Christian rather meaningless.
AnonymousI use the Bible because:
1. I know it.
2. Other Christians claim it to be their all-in-all.
3. Usually what I have to say is to other Christians… Sol it is my way of using their language to speak to them. Not that they listen.
I think the more I learn and grow and read the more I will diversify, but I am fairly new to the real-world. Richard. So cut me some slack.
AnonymousI’ve often heard the arguments against peacfulism (sometimes called pacifism, and often confused with passivism) as they are taken out the the furthest extent. What happens when we take justified violence out to the furthest extent – you’re dead, therefore I must be right. Pacifism is often accused of being utopian, but in the end, justified violence is too. I don’t believe violence can ever lead to peace, it leads to silence, and absence of conflict, or at least subdued conflict, but never real peace.
Agree Wayne…violence as a solution is not a real solution. But violence as a defense is sometimes unavoidable. We live in a world with very real and determined aggressors who seek to wipe out entire populations and face individuals who will gladly use violence in an aggressive and very lethal way.
@Richard, I’m still wondering why we have to run everything through the Bible?
If you can use the Bible to present any position you want, why don’t we simply go straight to reason and skip the whole bible thing?Valid question Richard. Though I think you will find many of us have long ago stopped feeling the need to “run everything through the Bible.” The bible to me represents the history of Christianity, the only knowledge of the teachings of Christ, and when kept within the proper context a source of wisdom. Not the only source, but still a source.
Anonymous@ John, I don’t know what you are trying to correct in my message. I did not say that peace was the central point of the Gospel, I said it was one of the most central, or practically important, aspects of our walk. Learning to embrace the sacrifices of ego and fear that being a peaceful person demands is a huge growth experience for the individual. I personally believe the most important aspect of our faith is the comfort salvation brings to the minds of people. Some people need new slates often in this life. Jesus is the answer to the basic and the complex questions, in my many years of extensive study of scriptures and other religious faiths. Our faith is not so limited as many would infer. In the example of Jesus’s pacifist behavior at his torture and trial, I don’t see the message of peace but of submission. Jesus’s submission, if you like I believe, was a sign of his appreciation and support for that exact course of events. He wanted to be seen to be killed, he wanted to rise from the dead, he knew they/we needed to see/think that, I get it, don’t you? Jesus, or the biblical writers/editors knew this course of events would seed and produce the hope for this new faith to grow upon.
People of faith who can embrace violence or talk of violence in any situation are still fearful individuals who are not fully trusting of an all powerful and all knowing God, it seems to me. These people don’t recognize the hand of God in their lives, they don’t see miracles or victories of love enough to trust in being able to walk the peaceful walk. None of us are supposed to fear death, not one. These people who fear death have attitude problems, in my humble opinion. These individuals need spiritual development and growth to happen for them if they will ever know even a modicum of real holy peace. When they are hurting they need to be able to look around at other Christians and see peaceful behavior and supportive relationships, this is where the problem is in the Church, as I see it. When the violently inclined are looking for answers they are seeing and hearing concurrences for their violent attitudes. That is what I as trying to say.
I do believe we need to avoid any sort of religiously motivated legislation, in that, most of the legislation that has been promoted as faith based, by faith based people, is harmful and even deadly in certain situations to certain vulnerable citizens, ie Abortion, lack of gun control and many laws concerning the poor in our social safety net system, these being top of my head.
I am a Christian that believes the spiritual concept of, “The Kingdom of Heaven is now”, I see this message not just in the Christian faith but also in other faiths and philosophies. If we want this to become more common in the population we need to be demonstrating the realities of this belief/philosophy. That is what I was trying to relate.
@Kathy, People of faith who can embrace violence or talk of violence in any situation are still fearful individuals who are not fully trusting of an all powerful and all knowing God, it seems to me. These people don’t recognize the hand of God in their lives, they don’t see miracles or victories of love enough to trust in being able to walk the peaceful walk.
In any situation Kathy? Such as in a defensive situation such as I commented on a moment ago? Let’s remember, we are here to respect each other’s views and not pass judgment.
Anonymous@kathy I wasn’t trying to correct you. I was just adding on to what you were saying.
@Kathy People of faith who can embrace violence or talk of violence in any situation are still fearful individuals who are not fully trusting of an all powerful and all knowing God, it seems to me.
Kathy has a point here. If you are a Christian who believes that god is in control and that you will have an eternal life in heaven, what need do you have for guns and violence? If Jesus gives the example of passive acceptance and trust in god, what are Christians doing fighting for god or to defending themselves? It would seem to me that a trust in your own ability to defend yourself through guns is an act of distrust of god. Even if you are using these guns to defend others seems to me to be a distrust of god to work out everything in the end.
If Christianity was about this I would certainly have far more respect for its teachings. It would be much more internally consistent.
Shit happens Richard…we all know that. Even to good people. I understand your point. But as a person of faith I do not need to be pigeon holed (or worse yet, shamed) into exactly what my faith “SHOULD” look like. If I wanted that I would go back to the church. It is NOT why I joined TLC.
@Gary Shit happens Richard…we all know that. Even to good people. I understand your point.
That’s not my point at all.
@Gary But as a person of faith I do not need to be pigeon holed (or worse yet, shamed) into exactly what my faith “SHOULD” look like.
I’m confused. Why should you be ashamed of anything?
@Gary If I wanted that I would go back to the church. It is NOT why I joined TLC.
Whatever I said that offended you, I’m sorry.
I don’t happen to agree with being passive, because like I clearly said I believe Jesus promotes a victim mentality. I thought defending oneself was your position as well.
I don’t even believe there was a Jesus. I kind of like him when he’s throwing the money changers and priests out of the temple. To me that’s real and definitely not politically correct. I would point out though, that he’s not killing anyone. In fact, if there was a Jesus, I think this is what got him crucified. He was interrupting the money flow. When you can’t inflate the prices and maintain your monopoly you’ll lose that cash cow. And Jesus was definitely shutting down the temple economy.
Anonymous@Gary, any situation, Gary. Every situation, Gary. What fun/good is, or how strong is a faith that is not tested to points of facing our fears? I have tested my faith, Gary, lol, lots and lots! The Christian faith, as I know it, is not a faith for the weak at heart,the politically correct or the shiny middle and upper classes, in my opinion to put it mildly! I try to warn people about the incredible and unimaginable cost of discipleship, if done seriously. We are asked to offer all and surrender all right up front. Then we are asked to find joy in the humble service and loving of others, not the charging fees of others for anything. I am one of the most terrible of Christian sisters and my small faith has shown me so much, I know I will never, ever pick up a gun for my physical protection and I will do everything to try to encourage those around me to feel the same level of trust in the power of the resurrection of our souls. Which is a really happy point of faith, in my opinion. I believe in souls, did I forget to mention that! lol. I am not around here to prove it, just to plainly state it. I love what the Bible tells us Jesus does for our souls! Love it! I contend with my Hindu and Buddhist brethren that Jesus is a sort of trump card of a savior! He offers Nirvana to the nincompoops, nincompoops are not intellectually quick or very attractive , sorry, @Richard. The entire faith in Jesus thing is a humbling experience, right from the get go, in my journey trusting the unfailing goodness of God. I don’t know how to say it, but with Love and God being Love, weird and scary situations can be navigated. Sometimes I feel like FDR is sometimes screaming through time at us all, “the only thing you have to fear is fear itself!!!” and in doing that he is only echoing the command of my Lord. ” Fear not..” Fear brings dark energies to our minds, dark thoughts and dark scenarios, say so many experts in psychology, religion and philosophy. I find that keeping the ability to detach quickly from negativity is a great way to battle fear. I had to find the ways fear attacks me to be able to grow in my faith as far as I have. I come from a long line of amazingly violent and fearful people. I had to rebuild myself as an adult. I had to completely eschew fear intellectually, religiously and philosophically, I am still working on it practically though, as this last month has shown me. lol.
I can only hope to encourage anyone who might read this, faith does have it’s hard won rewards, in my experience. I see it as a sort of super helpful, personal choice guideline for the situations in my life. I see my faith as my attitude adjuster for being able to love the world around me. When I am moving in love and I feel it, cause I am used to it now, I see no opening to fear. Fear even seems transparent sometimes, these days. I finally know myself well enough, to know my fear triggers. I know to back off as much as possible in those situations, this I have learned over many painfully humiliating years in my walk.
I am not trying to be anything but participatory here. I appreciate people here are at very different places in their lives, I meant no offense Gary. I apologize for sounding judgmental, it wasn’t my intent. I am not editing my sentences as carefully as I thought. I apologize again for any offense.
Anonymous@John, thanks for the clarification. I do believe the racism that resides in our world is sadly allowed to proliferate in the darker faiths and it’s a grotesque display for sure! All we can do is say no and refuse to participate in or support those kinds of people, I see them changing though. I do believe the light in the message of Jesus can and does penetrate some of the anger and disappointment with life these people suffer. Most racists and homophobes I know, are deeply insecure individuals and Jesus is like healing water that can flow even down into their deep dark recesses. I have hope for this planet if we can raise up a few more generations of children in this country. I think our kids are getting it on the homophobia/human rights front. I see hope when I look there.
@Richard, Sorry I was not speaking very clearly. My “shit happens’ comment was not meant to be implied as your point but rather my response to it. Defending oneself is indeed my position and I flatly disagree with any who would state that this view is somehow less spiritually mature. I also assumed that you would understand my reference to being shamed and/or told what a mature faith should look like was not directed at you. I am sorry that it appeared that way.
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