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@Gary Sorry I was not speaking very clearly. My “shit happens’ comment was not meant to be implied as your point but rather my response to it.
Ok. I would point out that we just spent a number of days with you making the point that a fine tuned universe is evidence for a god. I’m confused that you would now point out that shit happens for no apparent reason as if you believed in random fate.
I think the hallmark of modern thought is that we no longer believe in fate, but choose to ask why things happen so that we can better understand how we can prevent bad things from happening. That’s why I’m not a believer because I don’t think the universe cares or doesn’t care about us. We are free to place our own mark on our fate.
@Kathy I don’t know how to say it, but with Love and God being Love, weird and scary situations can be navigated.
I completely understand this. I use a number of different internal emotional images to help me navigate my way each day.
@Kathy Sometimes I feel like FDR is sometimes screaming through time at us all, “the only thing you have to fear is fear itself!!!” and in doing that he is only echoing the command of my Lord. ” Fear not..” Fear brings dark energies to our minds, dark thoughts and dark scenarios, say so many experts in psychology, religion and philosophy. I find that keeping the ability to detach quickly from negativity is a great way to battle fear. I had to find the ways fear attacks me to be able to grow in my faith as far as I have. I come from a long line of amazingly violent and fearful people. I had to rebuild myself as an adult. I had to completely eschew fear intellectually, religiously and philosophically, I am still working on it practically though, as this last month has shown me.
Kathy this is very beautifully said. I can completely relate.
One of my tests for believability is: If something teaches me to fear or makes its case through fear, then it’s probably not the truth because most fear is irrational.
@Richard, Ok. I would point out that we just spent a number of days with you making the point that a fine tuned universe is evidence for a god. I’m confused that you would now point out that shit happens for no apparent reason as if you believed in random fate.
But I do believe in “random fate” in our lives, very much so. I don’t see this as a contradiction to the belief in a creator in any way. Assuming the premise of God, it would seem quite illogical to me that His purpose for us would be to have no autonomy (free will) since such a state would rob us of the ability to learn and grow, and ultimately to even to love. Naturally this free will results in a great deal of randomness. (I know we have discussed this before)
@Richard, One of my tests for believability is: If something teaches me to fear or makes its case through fear, then it’s probably not the truth because most fear is irrational.
I agree with this completely. In fact this truth has helped me greatly in attempting to sort out what was false in my religious upbringing.
As for the “fear” factor, I would like to make a distinction in light of the recent posts. I do not believe it is fear per se that motivates me to defend myself if I am in danger. The desire for self preservation cannot simply be equated to a lack of faith or simple immaturity. I do not fear eternity, nor do I fear death, because I believe that if there is a God (which as you know I do believe there is) He is all loving and eternity is in His hands. If there is no God than eternity is moot. But I desire life and the joys of living. Is it fear or self preservation that causes us to see a doctor when we are sick? And even if there is an amount of fear in disease (I am a cancer survivor so I have some experience) is it somehow more noble or spiritually mature to simply ignore life saving measures and allow ourselves to die when taking action can prevent our own death. The mere question seems absurd…yet taking action to prevent someone from physically harming me or those I love is somehow portrayed as fearful, and less spiritually mature. To this I simply say…bullshit!
Not all fear is irrational (I like that you said most) and some is actually quite necessary for healthy living. I fear (perhaps respect) tornados for instance and have a plan to seek shelter if imminent need arises. Fear as has been used by the church however is manipulative and very self serving and as such fits well with your statement of not representing truth. However I am a big supporter of the 2nd amendment and keep a variety of firearms for both sport and protection. It is not irrational fear that prepares me to use them if necessary against a violent attacker should the need arise but rather love. In fact the bible tells us that love “always protects”. Since even Jesus instructs us to love not just others, but ourselves as well, I believe it is out of love that I choose to prepare to protect myself and, more importantly those I love, from harm. I take exception to those who would suggest that my views represent immaturity or a lack of trust in God.
@Gary Naturally this free will results in a great deal of randomness.
I don’t see why randomness would be natural since people don’t have a wheel of fortune in their head. They make choices based on motivation and reason. These are fairly predictable unless one is insane, but I wouldn’t consider the choices of an insane person free.
@Gary The desire for self preservation cannot simply be equated to a lack of faith or simple immaturity. I do not fear eternity, nor do I fear death, because I believe that if there is a God.
It’s not a lack of faith. I think it’s a possible lack of belief. Before I go on, I encourage people to exercise self preservation because I’m not sure that this is the only life we have.
Let’s say a man is breaking into your house to steal your stuff and he runs through your house with your laptop that has all your financial records, passwords, and because he doesn’t stop when you shout out you shoot him dead. Your stuff is safe and your financial security is secure. Your kids get to go to college and they grow up with good jobs and they live good lives.
Now you’re in heaven and Jesus comes up and asks you why you shot this man since all the stuff he was going to steal Jesus destroyed anyway when he came back to earth. And why didn’t you listen when He taught that the Christian’s treasure is in heaven and not on earth where it can be destroyed? And why didn’t you listen when He taught that if someone asks for your shirt, give him your coat as well. Because the priority of Jesus was to get people into heaven, not keep your stuff safe. And since you shot this man he didn’t have a chance to give his life to Jesus and he never made it to heaven.
And your answer is that you believed in self preservation. That’s sounds like an atheist to me.
@Richard, there are many details in your hypothetical which do not fit my situation or my beliefs. I would shoot a man if I believed I or my loved ones were in physical danger, not because he was stealing from me. I do not believe it is up to us to get people into heaven and I do not believe in hell. As such I don’t think attempting to respond to your hypothetical scenario would be helpful. And regarding randomness, since we live on a planet of billions of individuals, even with each of them making choices “based on motivation and reason”, the interactions between us all does present a rather convincing pattern of randomness.
@Gary And regarding randomness, since we live on a planet of billions of individuals, even with each of them making choices “based on motivation and reason”, the interactions between us all does present a rather convincing pattern of randomness.
Patterns of randomness? Patterns imply order and complexity.
It seems that it’s complexity when you want a god to be a creator and randomness when you want certain things related to fate.
Are you suggesting that everything that happens to us is due to our own individual motivations and reason? It would appear you are deliberately talking circles. I see no connection with my belief in randomness and the hypothesis of fine tuning whatsoever. And I really am not wanting to go back to that debate all over again. Still, I am curious why you feel compelled to challenge my beliefs the way you do.
@Gary Are you suggesting that everything that happens to us is due to our own individual motivations and reason?
Why would I suggest that? I live in a natural universe and I certainly don’t have that kind of power.
@Gary Still, I am curious why you feel compelled to challenge my beliefs the way you do.
I want to note that you are posting on a thread called, “Why atheists are no longer silent”
@Richard, I want to note that you are posting on a thread called, “Why atheists are no longer silent”
Yes indeed, I joined in a conversation concerning violence and whether or not Christianity requires pacifism. How does this have any bearing on my statement about your challenge of my beliefs?
It seems to me that we are very similar in many ways. We both rejected a similar form of Christianity, both embraced logic and rational thought, and both place high value on reason in the way we perceive and choose to interact with our world. Yet it seems as if you have a real struggle with the fact that, though I also claim to embrace reason, I have not arrived at the same conclusions as you. And then again I may just be whistling Dixie.
@Gary It seems to me that we are very similar in many ways. We both rejected a similar form of Christianity, both embraced logic and rational thought, and both place high value on reason in the way we perceive and choose to interact with our world. Yet it seems as if you have a real struggle with the fact that, though I also claim to embrace reason, I have not arrived at the same conclusions as you.
Well, I know why I have arrived at different conclusions. We basically have different presuppositions. We also label different things as logical.
@ Gary Yes indeed, I joined in a conversation concerning violence and whether or not Christianity requires pacifism. How does this have any bearing on my statement about your challenge of my beliefs?
I outlined this a while back. I find that the same reasoning process that moderate Christians use to justify their beliefs is same reasoning used by Christians who believe violence is an acceptable means to “save” people. I consider this lack of precision within moderate Christians to be a form of enabling.
Now if Christians avoided violence all together I think that would be more internally consistent with a belief in a future life. And I think I would respect Christianity more, because that is not an easy position. I think the Amish were good examples of this when their children were killed by a crazy man with a gun. You didn’t see them crying out for justice. They asked for forgiveness and understanding for the killer. They were sad, but I saw that they believed their children were going to heaven and the souls of the living were more important to them and this included the killer.
I don’t share their beliefs, but this did seem more internally consistent. And it’s hard to argue against those types of convictions.
I would appreciate it if you didn’t label me as obsessive. If you noticed, as soon as you said you didn’t want to dialog further I stopped. That is not the actions of someone who is obsessed. If you don’t want me to engage with you all you have to do is say so.
Richard I don’t understand…we are in a forum where one of the most important principles is that it is a “safe” place. You have repeatedly challenged the rationality of my belief in God and sought to point out perceived inconsistencies in my statements. I have not criticized your lack of belief in a creator even once. In fact I have used very complimentary and conciliatory language with you repeatedly, most of which has gone unacknowledged. I have carefully scanned this thread and do not see where I said you were obsessed, rather simply asked why you keep challenging my beliefs. At this point I believe this to be a fair question. I did use the term obsessed one time in the other thread referring to your continuing to try to press a point that I believed we were past many comments prior. If this was offensive to you then I apologize. Understand there was a certain amount of frustration at this point on my part due to feeling I had addressed it repeatedly.
I won’t pretend to know what you feel about the conversations we have had with each other. I can tell you that I have mostly enjoyed them and have tried to make them positive and beneficial, though I have found myself on the defense far more than seems appropriate for TLC.
@Gary I did use the term obsessed one time in the other thread referring to your continuing to try to press a point that I believed we were past many comments prior. If this was offensive to you then I apologize.
Your right I projected the word obsessed. The word you used was compelled. I apologize.
What I hear you saying is that you would prefer that I didn’t challenge your beliefs. I can do that.
Anonymous@Gary, you are safe here, sir. Being safe and not being challenged is not the same thing is it? Respectfully Gary, if you can’t establish common ground with your conversants to concur upon, then you are in debate mode, no? The conversations on this site do tend to fall into the supportive and conciliatory mode for a lot of the time. I look forward to conversations like this though, where people’s foundational philosophical premises emerge. I am amazed to hear you are a Southern Baptist Pastor (retired?) and yet you believe in the power of “randomness” in you life! Most SB’s I know practice a form of Calvinistic belief.
I really appreciate your willingness to communicate Gary and I hope you will again forgive me for stating so bluntly my simple, harsh views, which I know is a form of radical Christianity, it can be very annoying, or so I have been told and told. But these guys haven’t kicked me off the site yet and they definitely have the power to do that! So I see that as hopeful for my personal development.
This is a time we need to be finding our common ground and appreciating the gifts of one another. I appreciate your culture and positions Gary, just sayin’.
@Richard, I really get a kick at all the dust you kick up. You are contributing really great conversation points. I know that the mind of man, is the real battle-ground. The more minds that are trained and exercised with logical consistency the better for us all. If we had logical consistency pared with love for one another so much of our modern problems might be resolved. I can sooo see the benefits of this logical respect on legislatures. It’s late and I must to evenings rest. Thanks to the peeps on this thread. I get it and I really, really appreciate it.
@Kathy, I am amazed to hear you are a Southern Baptist Pastor (retired?) and yet you believe in the power of “randomness” in you life! Most SB’s I know practice a form of Calvinistic belief.
Yes I was licensed as a Southern Baptist minister many years ago. But my views, like the views of most of us here, have changed rather dramatically since then. In fact they have changed so much that I have left the church all together. When I speak of randomness it is not meaning that I do not believe God has ordered the universe because I do. What I reject is the idea that everything that happens is God’s will, as was so often thrown in the face of the suffering in the churches I used to attend. When we do this we are forced to blame God for unspeakable tragedy as if He somehow orchestrated rape and murder for some philosophical lesson. I believe such thinking portrays God as a cold hearted monster. It is not the God I believe in.
Kathy, This is a time we need to be finding our common ground and appreciating the gifts of one another. I appreciate your culture and positions Gary, just sayin’.
I agree, and I have sought common ground with all I encounter here and seek to learn from the perspectives with which I have no commonality at all. But being safe means that when we discuss our differences we will not seek to criticise or to portray the views of others as immature, fearful, or illogical. It just seems to me like this thread has wandered into more of a critical tone.
Kathy I love your enthusiasm, I find it inspiring. And yes it is true that such zeal can get you into trouble at times…lol. Yet many of the views you have expressed in this thread are ones which I personally would and/or have rejected. But this does not mean we cannot learn from each other and enjoy exploring where our beliefs intersect.
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