Marriage is to make us holy not happy?

[Anonymous]

A little while ago I met with a long time friend.  I knew this lady had been in an unhappy marriage for a long time.  We knew each others’ storage.  We both had attended the same very strict charismatic churches that expected their young women to shun dating and worldly relationships and eventually become totally submitted and happy wives to Christian men that God and the church had approved for us.  We were supposed to have Cinderella happy endings.  But you all can probably guess how that turned out.  I left my marriage a couple of years ago.  I am rebuilding my life.  It’s not always easy but I wouldn’t go back to my cage for anything.  I couldn’t help but notice how light and happy my friend looked.  She had made a decision about her unhappy marriage and was making plans to go her own way.  Her peace was evident.  I felt a twinge of guilt for not admonishing her to stay, but all I could feel was relief for her.  And hope that she would find herself again.

Another friend of mine attended a Gary Smalley seminar at her church.  He spent a lot of time talking about the principles in one of his books which basically says that marriage is one of God’s primary tools for making us holy.  Marriage according to Smalley is about holiness, not happiness.  And my friend had obviously been brainwashed after sitting through hours of this stuff.  She was trying to throw herself into a failing and abusive marriage with returned vigor.  Convinced that the cruelty she was experiencing from her alcoholic husband was God’s will to make her a better person.  I listened and didn’t say much because I knew she couldn’t hear me.

And I came away from these experiences thinking about women and the Church again.  We are always blamed.  We are always punished.  We are always subjugated.  We are always dismissed and ignored.  We are always admonished to shut up and if we do speak, it is so scrutinized.  And I am once again struggling to find anything positive to say about the church in regard to women.  And I am once again wondering if all the harm that the church has done to women could ever be offset by the positive it accomplishes.  Can anyone else relate?

• This topic was modified 1 year, 11 months ago by  David Hayward.

[David HaywardKeymaster]

Well, I’m not a woman, but I am friends with lots of them. (Binders of them? LOL) The church is typical in its subjugation of women. I relate to that reality.

[Anonymous]

Totally relate. It’s a kind of mental imprisonment. All men and women are depraved. But women have the additional burden of working out their salvation while also being responsible for their husband’s salvation, making him pleased with her and staying quiet.

If I heard one more time, “Yeah, but a husband’s role is to DIE for her!” I might have lost my marbles completely. I had to get out of there fast.

[AngParticipant]

I have two women friends who both left the abusive church I left.  Friend 1 (who finally left her abusive husband) knew I was meeting friend 2 for lunch one day and told me to tell friend 2 hello and that she was separated and getting a divorce and why.  I told this happily married mother of 6 friend 2 about friend 1 wanting me to tell her about finally leaving her porn addicted abusive husband, who also abused their child.  And, I was not at all ready for the response I got.

Friend 2 says “Well, you know that if (friend 1) had been a good wife who took care of her husband like a wife should, he would not have been addicted to porn and he wouldn’t have been abusive.”

I just sat there with my mouth open and I said “What?” and I got a lecture.  I had known this lady for ten years.  I was so shocked that she would say things that she proceeded to say that were totally derogatory about friend one.  And, it seems that in her opinion that if a man will work and support a wife and son, they should ‘do whatever it takes’ to ‘make a happy family.’

And just writing this still upsets me….

 

[Ruth AnneParticipant]

It’s maddening!!! I was fortunate enough NOT to grow up in that kind of church situation because my father was all about women as equals. We had women deacons before they were allowed and pushed the envelopes on women elders and he stood firm for women’s rights in the denomination way before they ever allowed it. The church he planted is pastored by a woman now.

My sister and I were raised to believe that we were equal partners in marriage to men and that real men weren’t going to be threatened by strong women. Of course, it did mean in my dating life that I lost a lot of relationships because the guys always wanted me to understand the “submit” part. This was one of the things I appreciated about my husband when I met him, he had no qualms about that, in fact,  my husband and I blew up a few bible studies in Ephesians over the topic! It has alienated me from a lot of women which I find fascinating because they just think that it’s “God’s will” that they sit back and let all this shit happen to them. I actually remember staying at a friend’s house and her husband dictated her diet! I’d love to know what happened to them. The problem is that especially in that situation – the women get pregnant, have no earning potential and basically get trapped in this existence and can’t get out.

I also HATE that marriage is for holiness and sanctification thing. Books go viral and Bible studies are built on one man’s view of marriage as the God-given truth. It’s like the WHOLE purpose of life on earth is to be sanctified. Enjoyment is a sin and everything has to be with holy purpose and intent. And then, yes, it keeps women in bad, abusive situations. I heard of someone getting out of a bad situation in just a few years of marriage the other day and I was SOOO relieved that she had the guts to do it because the longer it goes on, the harder it gets. But there were lots of christian “kluckers” out there raising eye brows saying things like “she didn’t give it a chance” or “I bet there’s someone else” or whatever. If you tell someone in the church your marriage is abusive the first words out of their mouths are “God hates divorce” and there you have it. No options. Buck up and watch your spirit die….

 

[starfielderParticipant]

Disclaimer, I was brought up in the Middle East. Now, that makes my take on things skewed. I was also raised by a Dad who believed in making my sister and I into young women who knew their own thoughts and could think for themselves and have our own education and career so that we wouldn’t have to be dependent on anyone.

And then I got dumped into the fundamentalist church.

I lasted as long as I possibly could. I held out thinking it was what I was suppose to do. But I lived with my Aunt and Uncle… who well, were twisted and crazy. My uncle was on the church session and taught the “young marrieds” class at church. All the while he did this he was having an affair, berated my aunt and made derogatory comments about her body, patted my butt whenever possible, stashed porn in his brief case, and walked around as if he was the most righteous god fearing man that we should admire.

My Aunt never divorced him. I still don’t understand it.  He died, and my Aunt is finally free to live her life. I wish it hadn’t taken her so long. But we all have free choice as humans to live the life we choose…

[pamwernerParticipant]

JEB…

I can totally relate and I see the church as toxic for women. I do not want my daughter there. For that matter, I do not want my sons there, as I do not want them to be convinced that they are superior in any way to women, or that they need to be submitted to.

I used to be those women, and now that my eyes are open, I see it EVERYWHERE.  I think the way women are treated in church is abusive and oppressive and I am glad to be free.

[MxMagpieParticipant]

I have seen this pattern so often, and not one church I’ve been in has openly challenged it.

As someone in some comment somewhere on this website quoted “Jesus is the best theology” and crap like this comes from theology founded on what Paul and Peter said, which in my experience almost always leads to problems at some point.

A church I left a while ago had this really creepy unspoken vibe. It was comprised of mainly middle-aged people with families, a smattering of elderly people and the youth very much in the minority. They would leave for university, come back, and almost immediately be expected to get married and produce a child. There is not a single married, childless couple in there. I hated the implication that that was all a person would amount to, whilst my own aspirations were looked down on. This church also had a massive preoccupation with Holiness in a “check yourself before you do something that would be a little bit out of the ordinary” kind of way. So yeah, I would definitely say there is a link there.

Needless to say, my partner and I weren’t about to fit in ( I think most people were in denial that we were an item, ehehh.)

Regarding women, from an outsider’s perspective I’ve seen some pretty insidious things. Talking to my mum for example, she’s fully on the “This is where a woman SHOULD be” train, and I’ve never understood why women agree with that. What’s the motivation behind submitting yourself to the lesser position handed to you by men? On the other side, the main argument I hear from my dad about why anyone female can’t be a pastor is that it’s a “different role” he says. “Women and men were just meant for different things, neither role is lesser, they’re just different.” I’ve never bought it. To me it just seems like dancing around the conviction that women wouldn’t do as good a job, which is balls.

In the UK, the Anglican church allows female ministers and came very close to legalizing female bishops, though the reason why it wasn’t passed was the extreme amount of controversy it caused. Still, they’re further ahead than the reformed, baptist circles I come from. My dad is very much against the whole thing. For all their flaws, at least the Anglican church is trying to filter out discrimination.

@Ang : Wow, that is so appalling. Blaming women like that isn’t unique to Christians either from what I’ve heard.

@pamwerner: Woo, freedom! Good idea about your kids too, I think upbringing is what makes a lot of men feel they have a right to a woman’s submission. It’s creepy to say the least.

@Ruth Anne : Yeah the abusive side of it seems to show that the church doesn’t care about the women in it :/ Their response is basically “Abused? It’s your own fault, and you’d better not try and escape because that would be a big fat SIN! Sort yourself out.” As opposed to; “Abused? How can we help?” Which is what should be happening.

[Anonymous]

@MXMagpie the technical term for your Dad’s point of view is Complementarianism w/ Hierarchy.  There is a subordinate theology of just Complementarianism w/no Hierarchy that he may eventually fall to.  Which basically means that women and men do fill different roles, and that these roles complement one a other, and that both are necessary components, but these roles are not necessarily higher or over each other and it allows for women in leadership roles up to and including Senior Pastor.

Good news is that he is not strictly Reformed in his theology about women, and it shows that he has come a long way.  Of course the day that he can simply and honestly say “I don’t really know” or “I know for a fact that women are equal to men” would be the day he has come much further.  

@JEB64 I sat down with a group of neo-reformed pastors one day to ask them about  their church, because it was known as the hippest church in Abany, NY.  It was an Acts 29 church, and they drank beer and met at a live concert venue and dressed rather cool.  I read the web site and it pointed to a set of reformed beliefs.  The site also pointed to a Rev. Mark Driscoll as the Pastor over the ministry.  I thought they were pretty cool until I read all of their code language about women and men.  It sounded very much like complementarianism.

So after talking to these two really nice guys with super cool haircuts and fancy glasses over lunch and a beer, I asked them.  “So, tell me what do you guys do with the whole men are better than women theology thing that the reformed church is known for?  I mean, do you just like acknowledge it and then ignore it?”

They both came to bat for their theology like it was from the mouth of God to their ears.  I was flabbergasted .  I checked the calendar on my watch and said “no, it is still 2008.”  Then I smiled and asked “How do your wives handle it — you know you guys making all the decisions and such.”  They adjusted their sweater vests and took a sip of their Irish beers and both claimed that their wives preferred to have the men make the difficult decisions and they both chuckled about it like it was oh so funny.

I said “So if you had a woman in your church who had a masters degree in education and she wanted to teach a Bible Study Group, but you also had a man, that was an auto mechanic who wanted to teach the same class, you would…”  They finished my sentence with “…choose the man every time.”

Again, I was dumbfounded.  I looked in their faces and saw a hint of amusement, but mostly sincerity.  I realized that the one guy was wearing a pair of Ralph Lauren glasses that were just glass (no prescription). I had no further questions.

This may have been back in 2008, but that church is still thriving with young adults from the city here.  Thriving.   And they still subscribe to the same Driscolian Reformed beliefs.  Anyway, that was my very long two cents.  Needless to say  the church I planted had a stance on Equality for all.  No fancy theological words – Just Equality. If you disagreed, we let you know there were other churches that you might want to look into.

 

[JulParticipant]

I’m very familiar with this idea and lived in a cult world where I even heard this statement regularly.  And believe me, we were neither holy nor happy!  But I never understand why anyone would pit holiness against happiness as if holiness were misery, I mean isn’t God supposed to be holy? Is he also miserable?

[DanielleParticipant]

I relate to this:

And I came away from these experiences thinking about women and the Church again. We are always blamed. We are always punished. We are always subjugated. We are always dismissed and ignored. We are always admonished to shut up and if we do speak, it is so scrutinized.

My faith used to fit me like an old glove.
Then I went back to my home country after years of living abroad.
The cousins I’d grown up with had changed to much in their beliefs.
One cousin, the guy who was one of my best friends growing up, told me to “find a man and serve him”. This is a guy who, when we were in school, was told his IQ was in the top 3% of the country. We had always had these great intellectual discussions.
I sat on the beach and cried. I felt so unwelcome, so disrespected.
While I was there, another cousin, his sister, invited us to her baby’s dedication in church. The brother’s girlfriend (who has a child from a previous marriage) said she couldn’t be there, as she had to work. This cousin sent a text back, “the woman’s role is to be at home with her children”.
No respect.
I came home deeply troubled. If God wants us to stay home and make babies only, why did he give us such complex brains?
This started my doubting journey.

[Author]

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