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Sometimes I wonder if there always has to be closure.
AnonymousYeah @Sara Life is messy and many times you don’t get to have closure, or in other words in this case, “Ain’t nobody got time for that.”
One of the things I decided not to agree with was the church’s insistence that we had to totally make up with people and completely reconcile to an even better place than we were before. I’ve chucked that completely. I mean, it doesn’t make the pain of some separations any easier, but the illusion that something’s terribly wrong if we don’t patch things up is unnecessary. Still hurts though.
Thanks for sharing your story @Sara, I’m sorry that your friend was willing to reconcile, and sorry to everyone else for the similar difficulties that they have been through
@Hugh – that’s just terrible, a complete alienation by your family because you believe different things? Wtf is wrong with people… in trying SO hard to follow the Bible, follow Christ, be a good Christian, follow the church’s regulations, so many people do actions that are wholly contrary to love. Though I do recall a quote from Jesus whereby he said that family ties will be broken by those following me? I was a bit iffy about that.Thanks@Rick !
@Rick, it’s tough trying to make sense of a shunning experience when you can’t see the justification for it. It seems religion can cause some people to do bad things. Fear, ignorance, lack of grace and lack of love are at the root of it as far as I can tell. Somebody has said the bible is like a ventriloquist dummy, you can make it say anything. Once you have the authority of “the word of god” behind you, then you can persuade others to go along with some pretty damaging agendas. I believe my son was manipulated into what he did, but still he has to bear responsibility for his actions.
My son treats me like I don’t exist, and God treats me like He doesn’t exist. Christianity and reality are seemingly two different things. This whole thing has made an agnostic out of me. Not what I was planning at this stage of my life…oh well, not much I can do about it.
Hugh & Sara, I just get angry hearing your stories. I feel your hurt. I’m sorry that people (friends, family) can be so weak and small-minded. Sorry, that’s what I think it is. They are fearful of mixing with you because of your ‘worldly’ outlook and feel they can justify it from the ‘be ye separate’ verses. What a reactionary, unthinking, interpretivist crock. Become a Christian in one of these churches and shut down your brain and your humanity. Agreed Hugh, ‘fear, ignorance, lack of grace and lack of love are at the root’. How on earth do they justify their ‘Christian’ frontal lobotomy? **rant over**
So, rant over, I liked the Shae’s chilling, sage advice. That, and taking up running, Forrest Gump style, running state through state. Or maybe an epic expedition of the likes of Freya Hoffmeister or Roz Savage. I sense a TLS paddling expedition could be in the future !
I can so relate to what Sara and Hugh are saying on one side, and what Rick and Helene are saying on the other.
I met my wife at an Anglican Young People’s group. I was subsequently ‘confirmed’ and we married 53 years ago. We were both very committed. I was treasurer of the local church for 8 years but was subsequently influenced by ‘The PLAIN TRUTH’ magazine produced by a Sabbath keeping church that rejected Christmas and Easter as Pagan festivals and also rejected the teaching of the trinity (that had always been a problem for me). For two or three years my wife attended on her own, while I started attending on the Sabbath. There was a time when I was attending on a Saturday with our young son, while Barbara was attending on Sunday with with our older daughter. Eventually Barbara started attending with me and was baptised about four years later. When we discussed this some years later it became obvious that it was a case of “if you can’t beat’ em, join ‘em”. We ‘knew’ we were part of the one true church because nobody else kept the Sabbath and biblical Holy Days as we did – but, and this is important, part of the church teaching was that of the coming Millennium when everyone would have the chance to learn the truth of the gospel message.
Part of the teaching of the church was the keeping of the Feast of Tabernacles (for which we saved a second tithe). There was a real emphasis on FAMILY – we really did consider ourselves to be part of a worldwide family of more than 100,000 people. In 1980 the church were the first private organisation to use a transatlantic satalite transmission to share a live service across the whole of America, the West Indies and Europe. In 1987 my wife and I were invited to America – we were met at Seattle airport and left from LA 27 days later without paying a single hotel bill.
In 1995 the church announced that much of it’s teaching was misguided. At that time we were part of a family of 14 related by marriage. The church and our family were torn apart. We have not spoken to four of those family members since. Because of our former Anglican background we were happy with some of the changes. but my daughter’s in-laws utterly rejected the changes. I was forced to reconsider (for a second time) just about everything I had ever been taught. My daughter and her husband who had been active youth leaders simply said that her parents and in-laws couldn’t both be right and are now effectively atheists. Barbara and I continued to attend the church with its changing beliefs, and because I was not in a leadership position found myself as a sounding board for others who were trying to come to terms with dramatic changes of belief. I found myself questioning just about everything that was being said (at a time when I was no longer employed). Eventually I was faced with a pastor in his 80’s who felt he now had a handle on the truth and that it was his responsibility to share with his dwindling congregation (and who could not accept anything I said that might go against his teaching). I continued attending for some five years and finally had to say to Barbara (who is one of the worship leaders) that I could no longer attend with her – but I still take her every week.
Barbara recently asked me to stop talking to her about my beliefs . . . and religion is an absolute no no when talking to our children.
Barbara is looking for the security of belief that I have been undermining – the irony for me is that my understanding of the gospel is closer now to what her beliefs were 50 years ago and so I believe are hers – but with so much confusion over the years the breakdown in communication (on anything spiritual) is almost total.
BUT despite all of this I cannot remember ever doubting the existence of God – is it any wonder that I describe myself as an agnostic theist?
I didn’t realise when I started this that it would be a bit of a rant – but that’s the first time recently that I’ve really thought about that long history.
Late to this very important conversation. Clearly life has gotten in the way of my TLS time.
At the church I left last after 10 years (the time we decided leaving meant the entire practice of church) I had been the teacher of the largest adult SS class for many years. There were a handful of couples in the class we considered very close friends. One couple in particular we truly enjoyed having in class and the occasional motorcycle ride and loved our opportunities to share with each other. They were perhaps one of my biggest champions in the class, often telling the pastor that I was the most gifted teacher they have ever sat under. (There were notable others sending him the same stories) Of course this praise stroked my ego…how could it not? But I genuinely tried to keep it in perspective and I believe what they thought was “gifted” teaching was really my propensity for pushing the envelope and questioning some of the church’s more legalistic beliefs. Of course I never did it in such a way as to put down the pastor or deliberately poke at our church. But the focus of my teaching was on love alone as the gospel message and the importance of shedding all of our pharisaical attitudes and behaviors. As I reflect back on this time, I am convinced that the reason I was so revered as a great teacher was not because of some special talent, but rather because the truth of this message connects with sincere believers on a heart level when they hear it clearly.
Every friendship in the church save one (our best friends and life partners) was of course immediately cut off since our only social life together revolved around church functions. (I believe this to be one of the great harms the church does to us…limiting all genuine social contact to those in our clique) But this one couple we had connected with stayed in touch via facebook and email and were genuinely friendly and supportive. Gradually that changed (well not that gradual really) as they returned to a legalistic perspective fairly quickly and we of course were heading in a dramatically different direction. Eventually our friendship ended badly when they rebuked me in an email exchange. I knew then they were fully back under the pastor’s control.
If I have one regret about leaving my class ministry it would be the nagging feeling that I abandoned them to the abusive and controlling ways of the pastor and church staff with no counter balance. But in truth I know that my time was limited either by my own choosing or theirs. My relationship with the pastor was tenuous as I had challenged him on his views concerning things like his King James only beliefs and his young earth literal creation quackery. Of course he also knew I disagreed with his views pertaining to alcohol and other such “sins” and the fact that we did not attend on Sunday nights, reserving that time for us, was particularly disconcerting as he expected all of his leaders to be faithful in attendance. Ironically he never confronted me directly (only questioned others indirectly as to why) on this issue because key leaders in my class had repeatedly told him he should ask me…but to expect me to not tolerate his bullying ways. (This one still tickles my funny bone) I left knowing that if my message had any chance of permanent impact on them my leaving had to be without great upset and chaos as a bad scene would have given them ample reasons to proclaim my teaching as apostate. Unfortunately we were resoundingly bad mouthed following our departure. Seems the need to do “damage control” is far greater than the need for Christian love.
Reflecting back now two years later I realize it is not the church I was hurt by. Of course it really pissed me off to see the way they handled things…but I knew it would happen having witnessed it before. They were a legalistic controlling body exhibiting many cult like tendencies. One we realized this…then there was little they could do to truly hurt us. No…the real hurts were in the way we were treated by those individuals who proclaimed such love and support for us. There were a small few who we genuinely believed would never turn on us this way.
@Hugh – I am so saddened to hear of your loss of your son, daughter-in-law, and your grandchildren. We too have a completely severed relationship with our daughter, son-in-law, and two grandchildren. They told us they did not approve of us based on “many biblical principles” and our inability to show “Christ like love”. They also sought to destroy me personally and professionally by spreading lies and filing multiple false police reports claiming I was threatening them. Of course these were looked into and quickly dismissed because their evidence they provided of the threats was nothing more than us angrily denying their lies and calling them out on them. Though they attend another church, we are often told how they seek admiration for their “spiritually” and how they believe they are “above” everyone else. I truly feel your pain. Their actions have driven me further down the road of questioning everything the church stands for even more than the actions of our pastor.
@John – I think you are absolutely right concerning fear. I believe the reason I was so loved as a teacher is because instinctively most of us know that something does not ring quite true in the legalistic/fundamental message. But when we allow ourselves to truly pursue the question in our hearts and minds the foundation of our old beliefs begins to crumble. Most, sadly, are simply unprepared to follow the path of uncertainty.
@Sara – Lack of proper closure nags at us as well. But as others have alluded to…we can only manage closure for ourselves. I wish we could find a way to transfer some of the healing and freedom we have discovered to those we cared about. But we know that it was not there for us either until we were ready for the dramatic change it would bring in our lives and beliefs. I have come to believe that “closure” is not the path to peace but rather an elusive and often unattainable ideal that can rob us of true contentment if we let it.
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