The Bible and Homosexuality by Matthew Vines

[Anonymous]

I’m sure I’m a little late to the party here, but as someone who is looking to be a pastor in the future (don’t stone me!), this video has been very enlightening. I’m not sure I’ve heard this argument so eloquently expressed before.  I cannot say I have been in his shoes in my life…until now. He asked me to talk a walk in them, I have and…I’m half way through and blown away. This is really good exegesis, not going to lie. Now that I’m done worrying about being branded a heretic, digging into the Bible is a blast. So yeah. Not worried about creating discussion; just hope this blesses someone.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/matthew-vines/bible-homosexuality_b_1378368.html

[Anonymous]

And I understand this could have gone in “theology”, but with all of the abuse that has come from this matter….I figured this was appropriate.

[Dan SParticipant]

Oh, I don’t know how many hours/days/weeks/months/years of my life I’ve spent looking into this topic… and I’m too tired to say too much now (probably for the best!) but just as a short post, yes I appreciate Matthew’s presentation – it’s really well put together. Another one I really like is Mel White’s, because it’s clear yet detailed. http://www.soulforce.org/resources/what-the-bible-says-and-doesnt-say-about-homosexuality/

There are many though (like my family) that have their minds made up, and even resources like these don’t really resonate with them because they aren’t open to the possibility that they aren’t right. Oh well, sometimes time and/or God can change that.

[Anonymous]

It is nothing compared to the hurt suffered by my fellow Christians who are LGBT, but even those of us who are not have suffered in churches because we love someone who is.  I remember vividly being in high school youth group and being told to make my sister my personal mission project.  I am so lucky she is such an amazing person who patiently waited for me to stop doing that to her.  A woman at our last church had her son called “evil” by a pastor and was told she was “in sin” for supporting him.  It just has to stop.

[MxMagpieParticipant]

Thanks for this. I’ve got a discussion going on with my wholly homophobic mother.

I know some arguments, and I feel I can validate me beliefs if required, but I am so sure she doesn’t want to change that I was very reluctant to give her any reasoning.

Well this morning she sent me a facebook message; “Morning! I was just reading Romans 1 in my quiet time and thought you might be interested in 18-32. I don’t think we have discussed this passage before.” Sounds pleasant and friendly but I know my mum, and this basically translates to “I thought you were ignorant of this passage and now I’ve made you aware of it you must read it and agree with it and realise that you are wrong.”

Well… I kind of finally snapped and sent her a 1,000 word reply covering historical and linguistic context, what the point of the passage really is and such like.

Okay the main reason for telling you all this is that I fear I’ve knocked loose the first stone of a landslide and will soon need more and more thorough lines of defense, so, if anyone has any really awesome arguments, as posted above, that would be VERY useful.

Thank you

[ShiftParticipant]

Great presentation! There is also a very good article on this on the God Article if anyone is interested.

I think the biggest problem with the church and its attitudes towards homosexuality is that it’s a traditional hatred of it, specifically with the middle aged people these days who grew up in the 60s and 70s (when homosexuality began to surface properly in Western societies). These people and those before them were generally brought up to believe that homosexual behavior was “wrong”, I know this because my parents have said it countless times and they belong to this age group. It is blatant homophobia at the end of the day, and instead of owning up to that, the church like to hide behind their Bibles instead (that don’t even support their arguments), or come up with BS slogans such as ‘hate the sin, love the sinner’.

[MxMagpieParticipant]

Oh yeah, proof for Shift’s post (not as if any was needed, but just a relevant story to back it up) is this blog post:

http://pme2013.blogspot.co.uk/2013/02/abseiling-lesbians.html

A horrific example of how one harmless attempt at equality was blown way out of proportion by homophobes, this in the mid 80’s.

It also goes to show that although the demographic exuding this hatred does include christians, it is by no means limited to them.

[David HaywardKeymaster]

great discussion guys.

[HeleneParticipant]

The Wartburg Watch did a whole week of discussion on this topic in August last year with different guest postings from those who took different positions (ha !) Here’s the link

http://thewartburgwatch.com/category/homosexuality/

I still have yet to fully digest it all as there were so many comments, so no exegesis or hermeneutics from me sorry. And I’ll have to read the links suggested by dms2012, as I feel I can’t give a considered response at all.

But I did have a conversation with a Kenyan chap recently who is absolutely black and white about the issue. Implacable. Interestingly, he didn’t have a problem with lesbians, although he did state that if his daughter told him she was lesbian he would cut her off immediately. It all got down to his aversion to men having sex with men. So I put these other questions to him, “so what if you define yourself as gay, but don’t have sex because of religious reasons?” Nope, he wouldn’t budge. So I asked lots of questions like that, circling around his views. It boiled right down to his core belief – that he thinks being gay is a choice. I think this belief is very widespread and ingrained in the Christian community. And it affects how they then respond. That’s my two cents worth.

[JulParticipant]

I think people who use Romans 1 inappropriately should be a little nervous of Romans 2:1-4.  Just sayin’.   This is maybe one of the most glaring reasons why I won’t go back to church, the way the LGTB community has been and still is being treated.  And this kind of treatment of any person or people who don’t conform or submit their individuality to absolute authoritarian control is not only commonly defended but even mandated by many leaders.  Bullies are bullies, even if they think they’re way cool and have big churches (Mark Driscoll).  I have never ever liked bullies, and I won’t stand by and let them have their way without saying something.

 

[starfielderParticipant]

Ok I’m going to out myself here… I am not gay and I was totally against people “choosing” homosexuality and I had all the Bible verses and arguments to back me up (I was such a good fundamentalist. sigh) … and then someone I dearly loved came out as gay. I wasn’t shocked but I had to make some choices. Did I want to stay bound in rules and right answers or did I want to choose love? Did I want this gay person in my life still, now that they were openly gay? To make matters more complicated for me, this gay person loved god and even loved Jesus and was the one who told me about the love of god when I first started my journey into spirituality. This person is the one who introduced me to the divine in a way that I wanted to know more.

I was asked to go to their wedding. I figured this would be fine. But my church friends were horrified and said things like, “well at least you don’t have to stand up with them.” Then I was asked to stand up with them at their wedding. I did it. It was beautiful and moving and lovely. None of my church “friends” wanted to know about how it went. They judged me for going and for standing up with the wedding party.

I attended a panel discussion of spiritual directors and one of the the directors was a gay man who directed/listened to gay, meth addicted, hiv positive, latino men in San Francisco. Could a gay person really hear god and listen with another for the voice of god in their lives? Yes they could. Yes they could be the voice of love and kindness.

Frankly, holy shit, those two people changed me. My encounters with them shook the foundations of my narrow minded little world view and blew it right open.

[JulParticipant]

starfielder, I  come from a similar background.  And a close friend of ours came out a few years back and at  the time we were ‘gracious’ but we thought it was a sin of course. God has had us in a journey and I like where we’re going these days.  One of my favorite memories  is from a couple of years ago when we got together with this friend and he and I  compared notes on hot guys.  It was probably the first time in years we all felt ‘normal’ again.  It just feels so utterly wrong and evil to tell someone that the who they are is sinful, something they can’t change about themselves, something they shouldn’t want to change about themselves.  I have another friend who was in my youth group growing up and she came out later, she went through hell but somehow came out the other side a strong and beautiful and amazing person. Sadly not everyone survives this kind of thing, and yet the church is seemingly not concerned by this problem.  I guess suicide is a better outcome than being yourself?   I can’t imagine having to grow up this way, we have got to change things.

[starfielderParticipant]

The gay person in my life is my sister. She is an amazing beautiful person who I can not imagine my life without. We  change. One person at a time… one life at a time… one moment at a time… and I’m still here and LIFE IS GOOD!

[Off the mapParticipant]

Happy Valentine’s Day – sis.

[starfielderParticipant]

Back at you “map”

[Author]

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