This topic contains 19 replies, has 9 voices, and was last updated by 
-
Posts
-
For the past bit, say these past few weeks I’ve been wondering if I’m an atheist. I hold this thought with care and just let it be. And then today happened.
First of all I ran the San Francisco Rock n Roll Half Marathon. I ran with several people and it was a great time. But at about mile 11 an ambulance went SCREAMING by us. It was haulin’. As it passed a thought blipped through my head and I said these words silently, “Please don’t let that person die. Keep them alive. Do not let then die. Help the ambulance dudes know what to do.” I guess this was my prayer. The thought passed.
But, here is what happend, there was a woman who went into cardiac arrest. Her heart stopped. The ambulance dudes jumped out of the ambulance and started CPR and she jolted, sat up, and came back to life. BOOM just like that.
I have NEVER had something like this happen. WOW.
I still don’t know what I think or believe about it. But I saw it. It happened. I prayed and that woman came back to life. (would she have anyway? maybe. don’t know)
I’m like you Melinda. I’ve experienced some weird things in my life. And I say the same thing as you: “I still don’t know what I think or believe about it.” I neither reject it or hang on to it. It’s just there.
I also wonder if I am an atheist (there are no gods). Is there a personal supernatural all powerful entity? I don’t know. Did you experience a supernatural event on the run today? From what you described to my understanding I would say probably not. Cell phones mean quick communication. Fast ambulances and great CPR/medical techniques save lives. The victim was not dead, only near death. She was brought back from the brink. Your ‘prayer’ expressed your compassion. It was probably reactionary not causal. The cardiac arrest survivor was saved by modern scientific development in my opinion. As others have said: humans are programmed to find patterns in every day life; it’s something that may have evolved. Of course I could be totally wrong
I hear you Hugh. That is kinda my take. But, I will admit, I was moved.
AnonymousI’m not so quick to dismiss what we don’t understand, or as Shermer would say, what we don’t yet understand. I believe (with nothing to back it up) that there is a love force connection that runs through all of creation, and that events and compassionate thoughts flow with that force. I’m not sure whether you were causing change, but I hold that you were involved, inspired through. I no longer believe in the dial up god who fixes things.
I spent the last few years watch my precious son die, slowly. During that time I tried to believe that through faith God could raise him up. Every time he came close to the door step, hundreds of people sent messages that they were praying for him. If I still believed that God could’ve but didn’t or did, either way, I’d be very angry that his suffering was extended. I’ve put down most of my faith, and I sit at the very edge of Christianity, holding loosely a few simply ideas: there is a relational love force, who created creators (us), who doesn’t interfere but somehow weaves reality together into moments of ultimate reality (don’t ask me to explain).
I also appreciate your perspective on this Wayne. I really don’t know what I think about it.
AnonymousA few months back, a friend of mine in the end stages of COPD/Emphysema died after several days in the hospital. I had initially taken her to the hospital, but then I had eye surgery, so I wasn’t able to visit her. A mutual friend was keeping a close eye on her and giving me updates. The day I could finally go see her turned out to be her final day. She wasn’t responsive and she was breathing 40 times per minute. I said the 23rd Psalm to her, told her she had nothing to fear, and that she was good to go. Five minutes later she stopped breathing. (No tapering off like usual – just STOPPED.) And like you, I was left with a lot more questions than answers. Was it a divine appt. that I was there with her when she died? (Especially when I didn’t even know if I believed in God anymore at that point?) Did the words I said have anything to do with the timing of her death, or did her lungs just finally give out all on their own? It really did leave me with a strange feeling, so I can relate to how you are feeling.
I’ve done CPR on several people when I worked in the ER, and not one of them ever came back to life – and I was praying the whole time that they would. (Although if they had, there’s a good chance they would have had brain damage or been vegetables – so it was probably a blessing they didn’t survive.)
It’s those first 4-6 minutes after a person’s heart/breathing stops that are so critical. Perhaps it was your prayer, or perhaps she hadn’t been down long and they arrived quickly enough to resuscitate her. Who knows? It does leave you wondering. If nothing else, at least you can celebrate the fact that she lived. (Just like I could celebrate the fact that my friend was no longer suffering having to struggle for every single breath.) I guess we just have to focus on the positive aspects and let the rest remain a mystery.
@Jo White, thank you for this.
I was raised in a family that claimed miracles every time you turned around for the most nonsensical situations. My sister took two years to get pregnant but when she finally did, according to my father, it was only because he prayed for her. Cancer patients were “touched” by God and bold proclamations of their healing were made, only to have them die 6 months later, often times because of a “lack of faith” and a return to medical treatment according to him. He was embraced by countless “faithful” as having a powerful prayer (healing) ministry and he was absolutely sincere in his efforts. But the truth was…his belief was at times completely idiotic and absolutely false. The number of claims he made of a miracle which were blatantly false was truly absurd…yet he wholeheartedly believed every one of them. When I had testicular cancer he prayed for me and then pleaded with me NOT to have the surgery to remove the tumor because he believed God had already taken it. His “faith” literally would have condemned me to a very early death, and I have no doubt he would have still been totally blind to the simple cause and effect of his actions. I am also a clotter in that I have had a dozen blood clots over the years…many of which were of the deep vein variety and potentially life threatening, and my father has proclaimed me to be healed multiple times and forcefully badgered my wife and I for me to go off of the medication that keeps the clots at bay. Eventually his nonsense drove a huge wedge in our relationship when we told him to either shut up about it or lose his relationship with us totally.
Make no mistake, I loved my father very much and our final words to each other just 3 months ago were telling each other I love you. I also learned many things from my father, such as what it means to love all people without seeing classes or holding to any kind of prejudice. But just as clearly I learned how dangerous religion can be and how it can make even the most intelligent people (he had a very high IQ) completely blind. Of course he embraced nearly every end times scare that came along and was a big follower of modern day prophets…none of which were any more accurate than your typical medium with a crystal ball. Ironically it was my father’s unwavering faith that set me on the road to questioning many of my own beliefs. Intellectually I was never able to play the “let’s pretend” game and he seemed to totally live there.
I don’t know what I believe about intercessory prayer and God’s willingness to work miracles. (I do know that in scripture they were always complete…unlike what I saw claimed around me) I don’t know if I believe God chooses to intervene at times…but it must be extremely rare IF He does. The faith I was raised with was extremely cruel to all those whose answer never came. That is not my God. That is a false god created by religion, a cheap substitute for the real God of love in my opinion.
Starfielder, please don’t take my reply here as any kind of criticism of your wonderful experience. None of us can truly know how God works. Personally I believe you had a special connection with the divine whether I believe God acted because of your prayer or not. It’s just that I have been so fully immersed in the absolute bullshit that is so often the product of religion that I cannot help but seek for God outside of its confines.
AnonymousGary, that last paragraph is beautiful, and the last few words are the best, “I can not help but seek for God outside…”
@Gary, I appreciate your perspective and come from a similar background. So, your words are great comfort to me. Thank you. I love what you wrote and this last bit is spot on for me…”It’s just that I have been so fully immersed in the absolute bullshit that is so often the product of religion that I cannot help but seek for God outside of its confines.”
AnonymousStar – you’re welcome.
Gary – I totally get where you are coming from. The last Christian group I was involved with was very much into physical healing and I even worked in the healing rooms. There was a lot of emotional hype, but I did NOT see anyone get healed. And even if one or two had been healed, what about the people who don’t get healed? Are they just chopped liver?
Scripture says God is no respecter of persons! Most of the Scriptural accounts of Jesus healing people say He healed ALL who were sick and oppressed. He didn’t pick and choose who would be healed and who wouldn’t! He healed them ALL – whether they asked him to or not!
That leads me to believe (even though I can’t put my finger on what it is exactly), that there is something WRONG with all this faith-healing stuff that goes on today in religious circles. I totally agree with your statement “The faith I was raised with was extremely cruel to all those whose answer never came. That is not my God. That is a false god created by religion, a cheap substitute ”
Since leaving all that behind, I refuse to pray for anyone’s physical healing (or for certain outcomes regarding ANY thing), because it IS cruel to get someone’s hopes up and have them be devastated when nothing happens. I’ve been on the receiving end of that kind of prayer and resulting disappointment, so I am not willing to do that to others.
Thanks Wayne and Star and Jo. It is amazing how much our experiences so resonate with each other.
AnonymousWow, the whole faith healing was what I was raised in also. My mom died of cancer at 52 years old after we had prayed and prayed and prayed and believed and ignored the Doctors. Some of my family even believed they could raise her from the dead and didn’t want the nurses to take her from the hospital room to the morgue. Some thought she would open the coffin and hop out. We all got some of the blame for not having enough faith. She had done it all too, John G Lake miracle water in Spokane, WA,healing rooms, prayer mtgs, elders praying, faith healing conferences, blah blah.
I was talking to my therapist about all this just yesterday. Yea, she looked at me with wide eyes and opened mouth.
My moms 11th anniversary of her death was last week and I think I am the only person in my family who has walked away from that bullshit theology.
Thanks for the discussion, it was timely for me.@KimT, my Dad died 11 years ago from cancer. When we zipped him into the body bag I thought he might STILL OPEN HIS EYES. He didn’t. I thought he might hop out before they cremated him. He didn’t. The thing that got me the most was this… all those prayers, all that time hoping and praying and trying to hard to have ‘enough faith,’ all the treatments- and he had all the treatments they could throw at him – couldn’t keep him living. We prayed he wouldn’t suffer and he suffered horribly. We prayed he would have a peaceful death and it was not peaceful. We prayed it would draw our family together and instead my sister and I didn’t speak for 5 years. Our mother was bonkers by it and still will say “I really thought God was going to heal him.”
So, I get it. I’m sure this is why the whole “pray and lady starts breathing again” thing befuddles me. I just don’t know anymore.
You must be logged in to reply to this topic.