This topic contains 67 replies, has 12 voices, and was last updated by 
David Hayward 1 year, 6 months ago.
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Wayne, I have thought about this thread all day. The Rob Bell interview was very encouraging to me. Thanks!!!
AnonymousI lke what you say about doing good, a father showing children waht good is and loving them when they come to him having done bad, let them know they have been misbehaving, love them and not threaten them with eternal punishment.
This is not the “turn or burn” appoach that scares people into the kingdom. I don’t see Jesus doing that. I see Jesus wating patiently, a gentelmen at the door, for peoople to invite him in. Not osmeone banging on the door or ramming it down.
What I understand about hell if we want to call it that, is separation fomr God and being done because God has gone OK you don’t want to do good or see things the way I have for you so i will leave you to get on with things the way you want without men then. Again, a gentlemanly thing to do.
Where we see anger, we see it done in love. Just as a parent would be angry wiht their children because what they have done is damaging to themselves and others. If the parent didn’t have an emotional reactiion it would be necause they didn’t care. Parents dicipline because they love their children and want the best for them. An athelete submits themselves to discipline in order to be fit, healthy and to win the race!
My question is, “Why do we give the Bible any authority at all?”
Why do we give authority to a book that has so many problems. I understand Rob Bell’s position and I like Rob Bell. If more Christians practiced their religion with the emphasis that Rob Bell puts on the practice of Christianity I think Christians would be far better thought of.
What I see Rob Bell doing is using a Christian mythology to present a philosophy of life that makes a real change in the day to day lives of the people on this planet. This is far easier to defend because it relies on a enlightenment based vision of the world. He is using forms of Buddhist and Hindu mysticism that remove the duality from Christianity in very clever ways that become accessible to a Christian audience.
In the interview he states that god is present in both painful and joyful experiences. He is clearly stepping outside of a good god concept. This is removing duality. I’m not saying this is a bad thing. I experience this, except the transformation through difficulty is mine. It is something that comes from within me. I see no evidence that it’s the god of the Bible that makes this happen or directs the events of my life so that some type of learning can occur. Some people never come to these places and some people never transform or grow up.
I too, am humbled by the complexity of the world I live in and I’m not so arrogant that I believe that given enough time we will know everything. I can completely understand why some people would want to anthropomorphize this experience, but there is something false about that to me. I emphasize that it’s to me. I can honestly say that it is not god doing it. I am reasonably sure it’s not the god of the Bible. That god is too immature and too many teachings in the Bible create nonsensical outcomes. I see these nonsensical outcomes too often mystified into “deep” teachings. When I studied why these teachings were brought into the canon, these mystical approaches no longer seem compelling. There were contemporary political and theological egos involved with these additions and modifications. I feel much freer to explore truth because I don’t need to keep the Bible the word of god.
Duality provides an interesting backdrop to explore meaning, but in the end it is artificial. It is a construct of a conscious mind. It doesn’t exist in the outside world. I have found that I experience far more joy and happiness when I take personal responsibility for my inner world. Too often the idea that I have to wait for some god to change me or some god to reveal to me truth, stops both those very processes. And when I have to address whether or not I am saved a whole other layer of fear and frankly nonsensical imaginary problems emerge.
AnonymousSome fascinaing points that you raise, i appreciate your reasoing and your candor.
I’d like to pick up on a couple of things you wrote:
“Why do we give the Bible any authority at all?” Why do we give authority to a book that has so many problems.”
It’s good to come to the bible with critical engagement and not just be a slave to it. There are many problems in churches from there having been the taking of a verse of scripture or a narritive within out of context then applying it inappropriatey. It is the source of many abuses in the church. What I would argue for is rather than the bible having many problems, it being the interpretation of the bible and the application of that interpretation that has many problems. There are waht appreat to be contradictions and paradoxes in the bible. For example Jesus is both lord and servant, liona nd lamb. It talks of being strongest when weakest. and there is a lot of poety and symbology in there which is not easily understood. The bible isn’t always an easy read! Also, it is written by humans. I personnally have an allergic reaction to the bible being called the “word of God”. I see it as having being written by humans inspired by God. Therefore not without error. Anyone who lifts words out of scripture without considering the genre, the original context and going through the hermeneutical process of how that might apply today often not in like for like circumstances is not going to get the best out of resding the bible.
You also wrote:
“In the interview he states that god is present in both painful and joyful experiences. He is clearly stepping outside of a good god concept.”
Can I ask why you assert that a good God would not be present in both pain and joy? I don’t have a problem with this. My own father was there with me both at times of us skiing together and at times when I had been going thorugh trouble at school with one or two wise words to help when i was groning up. It’s not difficult for me to think of God being there in both joy and pain and him being good.
I’m enjoying what you have shared on the hang outs. Hope to join with you on one of them soon. I can relate to what you say about the panic attacks. I used to have anticipatiry anxiety when going to a Vineyard church. For me, there was a lot of rhetoric about “this is not just theology”. The pastor shouting from the front at one time “DON’T GO T BIBLE COLLEGE”. When folks there found i have a theology degree, I got treated differently to the point of losing my voice due to the social pressure of conforming to the church cultuer to be accepted. Would love to share sometime of how God worked in that in a beautiful way to give me honour in spite of being treated without honour. Maybe get a chance to share at an upcomng hangout? Glad to hear you are in a healthier place now.
Anonymous@Richard, you always give me plenty to think about sir. I realize that I am sort of an anthropomorphaholic. Thanks for your comments. @Adam-Julians Thanks also for your comments, I hear a lot of me in your voice when I read.
@CowboyJunkey congratulations on being a relatively new father. There is no better occupation in the world IMO.
Anonymous@John yeah I’ve got a simlar kind of thing with you for me. And with the postings that we did with the muic vids too. Tho – I would have difficulty identfying with what you shared on the hangout that “we” are not good at making freinds. I came to church later in life and so I had enough time of being normal before that for church culture to not have affected me that way. *wink* I’m joking with a freindly teasing spirit. Thank you also for your comments. Looking forward to more discussions.
AnonymousThe “difficulty making friends’ totally resonated with me. I think it stems from the seed of “us & them”. In religious life we have the truth and they don’t. Even when you try to wander away from that, basic survival kicks in, everyone is a threat until proven otherwise. I’m not saying that we consciously see others as a threat, I think it’s a deep down evolutionary mechanism, that has been over exercised in religious, especially evangelical teaching.
Question: If the Bible was writing by peeps and inspired by God, what about the books of Bell? What makes some writings scripture, and Holy to boot?
Anonymous@wayne-Rumsby the context in which John made the comment in the handgout was a light hearted one where my assumption is that the “we” he was talking about was the human religious institution – the church. Correct me if i am wrong in that assumption and the manner in which you conveyed it @Johm.
So in that respect it would have been an us an us “we” rather than making frineds with folks that are the other i.e. folks that are different to out own worldview theological inclination or in any other way that there is difference. I find the “we have the truth and they don’t” of particuar prevelance in the ethos of the conservative evangelical cultures i have been in. At one dinner there was talk of making freinds fomr the speakers that were there, in odrer to evangelise to people. Now, I know that what they were doing was with good intention God bless them, but I think most people would be able to pick up whther somene is being freindly to them or being with them with the purposese to “win” them over to Christ. I am embarraseed to say that I used to be like that myself.
Now I tend to make freinds with people who I like. Whaever happens to them spiritually I’m still going to be thier freind. And I have found such frinds to be freinds to me that help me in many ways too. It works both ways. I think the church (as in the human institution) in general could do better by having the humility to recognise that it doesn’t have all the answers that the rest of the world has to adhere to in order to be in “truth” although it has many things to offer the world in service. And theat the church would do well to recognise where there is thruht out there (oooo sounds like a line from Star Trek) for tmes when the churh has things to learn. It’s a paradox that Jesus used ordinary day things and people to teach lessons to some of the most highly regarded religious teachers of his time. There is no doubt in my mind that the same is true of today.
Interesing question about the bible being written by people and with Bell, what can be detremined as holy. I would go to the Law of Moses and wha tthe pharisees were doing with thie oral laws. Jesus spoke about the Law but some of the pharisees straining a gnat and swallowing a camel. What I undertand by that was that they lived according to the principles of the Law as they presented themselves and received honour due to that. But that they neclected the most needy in sociey, the widows, the orphans etc. Doen’t he say that the pures form of religion is to care for widows and orphans? So I guess I would say, does what Rob Bell wirte ad value to sripture that is already there and apply it contextually to contemporary society. Or does it depart from scripture and cause burdens that Jesus never intended people to have. If in doubt, my choice is to pray for wisdom. I find there arguments over who is right and who is wrong fairly limited in their usefulness. Doesn’t everyone have a degree of right and wrong in them? I’m more interesed in ho we might unify with our diversity and guard orselves and leave others to guard themselves healthily where there are differences. After all we are not going to agree on everythign are we? My parents certainly didn’t and they loved each other and were best freinds.
Anonymous@Richard are the the Richard the David is talking about in his latest herding cats cartoon? *smile* just curious.
@Richard, I’m totally with you on the Bible question! Thanks! I’m quite sure there are many who have well thought out “reasons” for why we give the Bible any authority at all (as we well know!). This being said, these days I’m tending to think of it as a book that was written by well meaning people who tell the story of their encounter with the divine. The reason there is not more to the story IMHO is because we are the rest of the story. All of us are the rest of the story. I like what you say about Rob Bell’s version of Christianity. “What I see Rob Bell doing is using a Christian mythology to present a philosophy of life that makes a real change in the day to day lives of the people on this planet. This is far easier to defend because it relies on an enlightenment based vision of the world. He is using forms of Buddhist and Hindu mysticism that remove the duality from Christianity in very clever ways that become accessible to a Christian audience.”
I tend to like John Cusack’s take on Jesus,
“Who are your heroes in real life? Let’s go with Jesus. Not the gay-hating, war-making political tool of the right, but the outcast, subversive, supreme adept who preferred the freaks and lepers and despised and doomed to the rich and powerful. The man Garry Wills describes “with the future in his eyes … paradoxically calming and provoking,” and whom Flannery O’Connor saw as “the ragged figure who moves from tree to tree in the back of [one’s] mind.”
And I’m positive that the Richard referred to in the cartoon is you. But I would add that it’s like herding feral cats. Which, @John and @Cowboyjunkey, is how my husband and I refer to parenting… it’s like herding feral cats.
Anonymouswhoah @starfielder you are on fire! All power to ya!
Your kids – feral? Have they been having too many sugary drinks? *wink*
AnonymousAdam you lost me in the first paragraph, or I lost you. I agree with your take on John’s comment, is there something I said that made you think I didn’t? My point was that the “us & them” think is hard to get rid of even after you walk away.
I really like your last paragraph as that is what I think is meant in the God breathed verse in 2 Tim. We should listen to everyone and as if Godly wisdom flows through them. Listen for it, it’s there.
Adam… I am on fire… as Bruce Cockburn says, “Burn baby burn. When am I gonna get my turn.”
And yes parenting is a huge long adventure. And it has nothing to do with sugary drinks. Parenting IS LIKE herding feral cats!
AnonymousEspecially girls, I have two, I know.
Wayne, I have two of those and a boy!
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