This topic contains 67 replies, has 12 voices, and was last updated by 
David Hayward 1 year, 6 months ago.
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Anonymous@starfielder – you are funny – I remeber us having fun about the scarlet in chat – do you remeber? You make having kids with the feral sounfd like it is with me and my Jack Russell Terrier “Scruff”. He might be small but boy is he firey.
@Wayne-rumsby I was really just tryign to ge the context in what John was talking about with freindship and relate it to what you were expressing. I understood John rightlt or wrongly to mean in the context of folks that go to church and in the same church community. But you seemed to me to be talking about the us and them meaning between folks form different communities and who was right and who was wrong according to what any particularcommunity held to what “truth” was. Was I wrong to think that was what you wer meaning?
Anonymous@Adam-Julians as for the we comment, I was referring I think to Julia and folks like us that have been in that culture of church that uses a specific language, as well as evangelicals at large who were taught that the ends justify the means when it comes to getting people saved…
@Wayne-Rumsby yes sir, I think you see what I mean there. The us vs them thing where We are in the in-crowd and folks who are different are on the outs until they resolve to be like us. Of course the way to do that is easy. Just say a few words (the words we give you), come to church and play the game with us. If you don’t want to play with us, then you are merely against us and we never knew you. Oh yeah, and you are probably going to Hell.
Wayne, I also believe whole-heartedly that we too are writing the Bible as we speak (write).
Anonymous@StarFielder I have three of my own. Two boys (22 and 24) and a girl (25). And two grandsons (6 and 2). I do remember a time when my kids reminded me of herding cats though. It was in the early 90s…. It gets better…
Finally made time to listen to this. Very good. I wish there was a transcript.
Rob Bell is a very well-trained and experienced orator, and it shows. But he has also clearly been through some amazing experiences and I suspect he would fit in here on TLS very well.
Wade.
@starfielder & @ john – I first have to say that feral cats sound easier than the first year or so of our boy. Oh my … I can’t even think of an analogy. I would not believe people who said “It will get better”. I despised them. But he has changed so much. He is so entertaining now. As my wife & I always said – we don’t want to control his strong will, we just want him using it for good and not evil.
I got to listen to the Rob Bell interview today. I’ve seen a lot of the Nooma’s and heard a fair amount of his sermons (downloading from the Mars Hill website). It was interesting to hear the back story. Makes me even more curious to read his new book. The first one I read of his was Love Wins. Someday I’d like to go back on some of his other ones.
@Adam-JuliansCan I ask why you assert that a good God would not be present in both pain and joy? I don’t have a problem with this. My own father was there with me both at times of us skiing together and at times when I had been going thorugh trouble at school with one or two wise words to help when i was groning up. It’s not difficult for me to think of God being there in both joy and pain and him being good.
One of the reasons I’m an atheist in regards to the god of the Bible is the issue of suffering. For me, there is no evidence that god is with me in my pain. I see many instances where absolutely terrible things are happening and people are praying for god’s intervention and there is complete silence. An example that Christopher Hitchens gives is the case of Elisabeth Fritzl (born April 6, 1966) who was held captive by her father for 24 years. She was repeatedly raped and forced to birth a number of children locked in her father’s basement. She even had to witness the death of one of her children. Her prayers were left completely unanswered for 24 years. No matter how much she pleaded and asked for the intervention of god, not one word or evidence was given. Complete silence.
I can much more easily accept that there is no god, than to believe there is an all powerful god that exists who claims to love us and yet stands silent in the face of such suffering. And this same god suggests that his dying on a cross makes up for this. Every aspect of my own moral empathy rebels against the idea this god could be considered good.
If were to apply the story of Job to this and go to this woman after she had endured 24 years of suffering and tell her that god should not be questioned because he is mysterious and complex, I would consider that further abuse. Or to suggest that the reward in heaven would make up for this as long as she remained faithful is just as callous.
The approach of Rob Bell is to admit that this god probably doesn’t exist, but he doesn’t suggest an alternative explanation other than it’s good to doubt and it’s mysterious. I have become weary of rehabilitating god and rehabilitating the Bible to fit a modern idea of what is ethical and good. Fundamentalism goes back to authority and literalism. Rob Bell takes the story of Jesus and uses it as a call to help our fellow humans and do what we can to reduce suffering. I like that on a pragmatic level. I don’t like the god he suggests we are doing it for.
To me, the whole striving to be good is more about ego than really helping people. In an atheist world view I help people because I care for people. That’s it.
AnonymousThanks for sharing your postion as an atheist. If I were and atheist I would come to the same or simlar postion as you. And I can understandf how the metophor of me own father being there in jot and pain for me doesn’t work for you with regard to God and suffereing. I know from conversations with others it is a very common belief that the God of the bible doesn’t exist or how can he exist and allow the amount of suffering that is happeing, or he must be evil if he exists and allows all the suffereing that goes on in thw world if he could elimate it.
I’m hearing your weariness about God and the bible and fitting a contemporary idea of ehtics and goodness. I enjoy listenig to Christopher Hitchens. Saydly he is no longer with us and I think humanty is worse off for it. I don’t agree with everythign he says but he clearly was an intelligent, thoughtful, articulate and amusing man. In his hatred of Kissenger, he did say that “if Kissenger had an enema there woudn’t be enough of him left to fit into a matchbox”. Now agree with where is hear was at or not and agree with what he pertainse to be truth or not, you have to admire the creativity of his rhetoric. I remeber him saying something also about God ant “though crime” with an allusion to bir brother in Orwells 1984. so in that sense a fear of God being like big bother and opressive and how can God be loving if he is to be feared? The comparintg such as beong like in a loice state in N. Korea. And if God told him to sactifice his son, he would tell him to fuck off.
So yeah I see where he is coming from. But I woudl respectfully disagree with him and with you on a couple of things. And I would articulate why below with engagement in a couple of points you raise:
“I can much more easily accept that there is no god, than to believe there is an all powerful god that exists who claims to love us and yet stands silent in the face of such suffering.”
At significant points in my life in extremes of sugffering, I have prayed and ther has been a tantible power that I have received. This enabled me to endure the suffering and become stronger in myself from having come through it. it gives me confidence that whayever comes my way in life there is alwaysa that to come back to. Just today, I have come form a men’s breakfast in a church where someone shared he had been praying for comminity and happened to be walking past the church where he smelt bacon, came in and enjoyed the time there. He said he had been emailing for psychiatric help the night before but now does not need it becaused of the freindship and commnity he found at the men’s breakfast. He attiburted that to God in his life. I have expereinced an heard many stories like this. I cannot speak for the story of Elizabeth Fritz, that does indeed sound harrowing and anyeon would have every right to question and be angry with a God that does not answer such prayer. The psalms are full of it. But then whaty kind of a God would there be if God was not to allow free will? Much suffereing that has happened has been the choice by humans to exercise their free will and freedms to opress and abuse. With free will comes the choice to step out of being loving and step into evil if that choice is made. I would say that is the choice of disobedience to God. To my mind, there is the pronciple of love that underpins and yes I don’t understand every thing or wouldn’t attempt to undersatned everything – my little brain can only understand a small fraction of what there is to know. I woulds ask, if not love and if not God then what is the basis of living life? there are abuses done by individuals and communities that don’t have God central, there are abuses done by individuals and communities that do have God central. And it is a comfort to me that whatever abuses are done there will be judgement by God for those abuses made. I think he awards particular judgement for those who use his name in vain when conducting such abuses. I see Jesus doing that in scripture calling those religious figues that negelcted to do what was right as “witewashed tombs, a brood of vipers, blind guides, hypicrites” etc.
“Every aspect of my own moral empathy rebels against the idea this god could be considered good”.
I don’t think the dying on the cross of Jesus “makes up for” all the suffeting. what I see in that is God in the form of Jesus who could have stood distant from suffering but chose instead to suffer as we suffer for the consequences of humankind’s rebellion. And is someone who in his resurrection has overcome death. Death being the consequence of humankinds rebellion. This gives me hope and fills me with awe that God would choose to give up his privelidges to serve and to put right wrong that was not of his doing. Again it was at the hands of humans – the religious authorities who felt threatened by Jesusurutal and the opressive secular authorities of occupying brutal Roman seccularism that put Jesus on the cross. Jesus; hear was broken ove Jeruslam as he wept because he longed for gatherting of people lovingly, but they rejected him. And I see God being angry at his death on the cross. I think God is just as angry as anyone else about suffering, but out of allowing humanking free will he allows suffering.
Now there are things I don’t understand like natural disasters or children with birth defects, suffering because of that. And I can’e answer any question about that kind of suffering. I wouls question God about that myself – i don’t understand that. I get angry with God sometimes, I think he likes that honesty, just as I get angry with my parents or friend s sometimes for things they do. I see not inconsistency beteen me getting angry and being loving. If someone is being loving back, what I have expereinced is that though they may not agree with me and my get angry with me as well, we work things out and as a result our relationship gets stronger and more loving. Of course things don’t alwys work out after an argument and there are consequences to that too. But I find that if there is willing and loving with both parties, even at such times, reconcilliation can happen.
Good chatting with you Richard.
AnonymousI’m just reading How Not to Speak of God by Rollins. As an evangelical crawling out of a dark cave, this book is brilliant. I’ve read two others by Rollins including his latest. Bell is pop compared to Rollins.
Anonymous@CowboyJunkey You gotta read at least Velvet Elvis.
@Wayne-Rumsby I loved that book. Shortly after reading it I got to go to a conference where Peter was speaking and I got a snapshot of me and him together. Then I started to talk to him about my ideas in regards to his book and realized that I was talking philosophy and religion with Peter Rollins and ran out of words quickly. lol I also enjoyed “The Fidelity of Betrayal.” One to read if you haven’t already is Brian McClaren’s “A New Kind of Christianity.” (Not to be confused with his other book A New Kind fo Christian).
Anonymous@john I hear ya – so you intended to mean it as freinds both withint the evangelical culture with the jargon therin as well as the other not in that culture with the “ends justifyng the means” to get people “saved”. so for eample “freindship evangelism” being one example of that – not really being freinds with people but having an alterior motive with being alongside people. Or alternatively withitn the evangelical community, a pseudo-freindship, characterised by the use of simlar jargon.
Both being not frinedship in a real and honest way, hence what you said abuot “we” aren’t good at being frined sbut those outseod of church are and “we” need to learn how to be freinds where as they don’t. It irony being that you said it in a freindly way with a twinkle in you eye which is why it got a laugh fomr David and others. *smile*, Ans wht ina freindly way i teased you with me ont having that allfliction because of not having a church upbringing.
Talking about Brian McLaren, I had a chat with him once. i found him to be a freindly and likeable guy. There are some theological differences that I have strong disagreement with him about but then that is par for the course with anyone with me being a theology student *wink*. Good to have the diversity of thought out there – hopefully there is more to unite us than divide us with such diversity.
Anonymous@Adam – IMO, whenever there is an agenda for friendship other than “i just want to be your friend” then you are approaching friendship all wrong. I believe the evangelical church has been doing this for years. It is how I in fact became a Christian. A group of kids befriended me with an agenda (let’s get him saved) if at any time I would have expressed to them that I did not want to be saved, they would have eventually terminated their friendships (shook the dust from their feet) and focused on someone else they could save. That is how the church taught us at an early age that getting people saved is more important than caring about people otherwise. They started by training their children to be like this, who become teenagers and eventually adults. That is what is behind my statement. This is more of a dilemma than my “twinkle” of the eye would suggest. In my opinion it is primarily what is wrong with the church.
Anonymous@john I’m with you on that one. Have made such a comment to a prominent leader in the Evangelical Church here in Scotland to that effect which, and I give him credit for that, he took on board. I also have come from a men’s breakfast this morning where I have been calling the evangelical church to repentance and have been listened to and affirmed in that in the broarder area of what it is doing with its approach to loving as christ loves.
I confess to have taken on board the techings of the evangelical church in the past and indeed treated people as “evangelism fodder” to my shame. I am inclined now to make freinds with people just because I like being in their company with no conscious agenda to do anythign other than be a freind. I’m happier that way.
I understand you were treating the “dilemah” in a humourous way. The best comedy is done with playing it straight and often touching on serious issues. That’s what I do with stand up and with the kind of humour I have with freinds. Sometimes I can be quite cutting with it – always a fine balance to tread. It’s easy to go too far and offend but if it is too “safe” then it’s not funny. It’s like that with perfoming stand up – you never know what is going to happen you could die and it be a horrible exerienc or your time on stage can feel as if it has gone by with a blink of the eye – one belly laugh after another.
Anonymous“I confess to have taken on board the techings of the evangelical church in the past and indeed treated people as “evangelism fodder” to my shame. ” I too have much to repent for my friend. Yes, I think I always saw myself as more of a humorist than a lecturer. Too may times though people fail to take me seriously. lol – but it really is my own fault.
Anonymous@Adam “I confess to have taken on board the techings of the evangelical church in the past and indeed treated people as “evangelism fodder” to my shame. ” I too have much to repent for my friend. Yes, I think I always saw myself as more of a humorist than a lecturer. Too may times though people fail to take me seriously. lol – but it really is my own fault.
@Adam-JuliansAt significant points in my life in extremes of sugffering, I have prayed and ther has been a tantible power that I have received. This enabled me to endure the suffering and become stronger in myself from having come through it. it gives me confidence that whayever comes my way in life there is alwaysa that to come back to.
I have had these moments too. In one particular moment I had the feeling of a white light washing over me and a profound sense of peace for no reason at all. This enabled me to go on. Yesterday I heard a comment on Radio Lab where this man told his girlfriend that everything was going to be OK during an extreme situation where his arm had been sliced by a boat prop. He commented that he didn’t know if things were going to be OK, but he wanted to think that everything was going to be OK. By stating that everything was going to be OK, this allowed him to go forward and not be frozen in fear.
The fact that I heard this story yesterday would seem to be a “divine gift” because here we are talking about this very topic. These types of things happen because the universe is organized by fractal geometry. At the very smallest part of the universe is a simple structure that is repeated over and over to create the complex shapes we see in the universe. This suggests that it would be highly unusual to NOT have these “divine gifts” due to the very nature of the universe.
Our brains are set up to recognize patterns. This is extremely useful in a fractal universe because that’s all fractals do. They make patterns. Our brains love order and we are placed in discomfort when that order is not recognizable. That is the cost of consciousness.
To me, and I emphasize that it is my perception, free will isn’t destroyed by a god who intervenes. I would feel no oppression at all if god came down and found a way to let the police know Elizabeth was down in her father’s basement. Or better yet, distracted her Father so she could run away. The God of the Bible intervenes rather clumsily by destroying the earth in the end. I would think a god of that kind of intelligence would figure out a way to transform the earth instead of destroy it. If I were to believe in god, this god would engage in far more elegant ways than the god of the Bible.
To me, religion is people trying to make order out of suffering. There is a powerful need dictated by being conscious of providing a meaning for life. And bad things happening to people is very frightening. If we have a complex theology that keeps the fact that we don’t have control over our environment at bay, life can be lived in hope instead of fear.
I act from faith because it makes no sense to act from fear. I don’t know that everything is going to work out, but I engage in life as if it will.
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