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AnonymousOnce upon a time there was a beautifully intelligent and articulate woman who was also a married. She worked with a guy on a project to help folks in need. The guy was also married. He fell in love with her. He eventually fessed up to having a crush on her to her face. She reserved her comments about him for poetry and songs later. They did not have an affair. Instead, they continued to work together for years, she avoiding being alone with him, and he avoiding making eye contact with her.
And on and on it went. He choosing to love her by letting her live her life with her husband and children — not wishing to possess her as an object or interrupt her happiness. She choosing to ignore the whole thing and live her life as if nothing ever happened, except in art. Today, they no longer work together, but are still friends who wish each other well, always. Sometimes, when the guy hear’s her songs or reads her poems, it makes him a little sad. Then he remembers that being in-love is as addictive as black-tar heroin. He is grateful to be free from addiction.
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This topic was modified 2 months, 4 weeks ago by
David Hayward.
Well, this is a refreshing story John! Makes me ponder…
AnonymousI figured we could use something a little different.
I wanted to edit it a bit, but that option is no longer available. Let’s say that this “Hep Folks in Need” project was a weekly thing and it lasted for an entire year – just the two of them working together.
AnonymousSo my questions are… was this a bad thing? I mean, does anyone expect that the two would behave differently? Can you help who you fall in love with, and once you do, does that mean it will never happen again? and if it does and you are with the other person you love, does it mean everything must come to an end? Got plenty more questions for you folks, but I will rest on those for a bit.
I think for me it depends. Was it a bad thing…that also depends. I went to a retreat several years ago given by a psychologist called “the road not taken” and mourning the loss of that road not taken. A lot more of my life has been left to my choices than I realized when I was younger… and always, what are the consequences to me and those around me? What is the price? Everything has a price.
I have so many questions about love these days.
It does not seem bad to me. Feelings happen and ignoring or denying does not make it go away. One can decide how to respond but not how to feel, I think. And I’m sure they behaved in the way that was best for the families involved. But denying self for the sake of others can suck, and really hurt.
Anonymous@Starfielder, just to be clear I am not saying that a person should stay with their initial choices if something better comes along for them, or if their first choice turns out to be a terrible mistake. Everyone has the right to choose who they should be with and under what terms. And you are right, their is always a price/consequence that affects everyone involved. I understand mourning choices though. Even after making good choices.
@SanG I agree. Feelings happen, people fall for people all the time, even if it is just for a moment. A second of eye contact with a person, a phrase that someone says that stays with you and gives you a unique appreciation for them. A person’s looks, their voice, their heart, people are just lovable. Especially in an environment where they are trying to do good for others. Let’s assume that the two behaved in a way that was best for their families. The alternative would have been devastating wouldn’t you agree? And yes, I imagine that it would have been sad for both of them. Let’s say that there were tears on both accounts. Then sentiments exchanged. Then nothing more after a discussion on how to move forward. Today he is good friends with her husband and she is good friends with his wife. It seems like the best outcome imagined, except that he still mourns occasionally. But he decided that if he truly loves her then he should allow her the freedom to enjoy the life that she chose without any distractions he might be able to provide. So loving someone is not about possessing them. Sometimes loving someone is about releasing them and wishing them well in the life they have chosen. The act of loving being sending good thoughts their way every time you think of them. Seeing them play with their children and bond with their spouse generates warm feelings and satisfaction in knowing that you are giving them the opportunity to be truly happy in the life they have chosen. And yes, San, I imagine that sometimes it can really suck…
To compare the two loves (his wife vs the other woman) would be difficult at best. Imagine that he loved his wife as much as any husband could love their wife of 15+ years, yet his love for the other woman was new and strong and acute. So though it seemed more powerful, it really was just different. Loving the one woman had no affect on the love he had for his wife. Do you think this sounds crazy?
AnonymousI don’t think this sounds crazy John. I think it all sounds perfectly nromal and human. Both folks invovled still loved their wife and husband but they had feelings for each other. Was it healthy though for them to have as much close contact with each other – I’m not so sure. I love the part you mention where he loved her other enough for her to have the freedom to enjoy the life she chose without any distractions that he might provide. Perhaps working together and having such strong feelings wasn’t the best of choices if it did distract from that freedom. You menteiond addiction, well perhaps it would have been better to limit contact just as an alcholic needs to be wise about wherther they hang around a bar or not. Healthy boundaries – so long as he didn’t have distraction from loving his wife either. I think there is a difference between what is an inspiration for poetry and having a crush on someone to induling in being unfaithful. It would be unhuman not to have such things even when being married. But what did they do with that? I think it depends – some folks may be able to resist the temptation and be strong enough to not give into it. Some folks may end up doing somethig they later regret in a situation like that. I guess it depends on the people. I’m wouldn’t like to give an opinion about this as an attempt at knoinw what is appropriate for anyone expereinceing anythign like this.
Yes John I think we’re saying the same thing. I’m clear.
John, it sounds to me like this was -is- a gift. It also sounds like it was and is being handled well. I think some important questions are:
Are these people’s lives better and richer for this experience?
Has harm been done to anyone – did this create any downside in the existing marriages – or perhaps, on the flip side, provide a perspective that makes the relationships with the spouses more valued?
Love can’t be turned on and off. It is what it is. I also think it’s a rare find – at least that’s been my experience and observation. I would say to simply enjoy knowing that such a thing has graced one’s life and allow that knowledge to enrich one’s heart and all other loving relationships.
Anonymous@Adam-Julians – I totally hear where you are coming from. Please don’t be offended when I say that it is everything I have said in the past and what I used to believe about these things. Separation, distance, temptation, boundaries, are all words that used to be a regular part of my vocabulary. It is what I learned in seminary and emotional and relational-healing type classes. Thanks for bringing up the addiction part. Let’s say that you are right, and the man had a history of brokeness (another 10 dollar word) in this arena and was told that he was addicted to the “in-love” feeling. Maybe, In the far-past he actually did physically cheat on his spouse. and possibly emotionally at other times. However this really was part of his past – his youth, etc. So, the man was not so much addicted to being in-love as much as he easily fell in love with people when he was younger and then had no idea how to handle it. So it became physical almost immediately.lets say its because no one ever taught him how to be a good friend to a woman. So that was the only way he knew how to relate to women. I could easily say “the other” here as opposed to the word “women.” But what I am finding is that real life, apart from church is messy. It is supposed to be that way. We can never learn if we distance ourself from things that could go wrong. We can never get better if we choose to avoid unconfortable or potentially dangerous situations. If by resisting temptation we mean running like hell from it (like I have often heard folks quote the Bible), are we truly resisting making bad decisions? When we say boundaries, do we really mean quarantine? If so, how do we ever learn to live in the real world, where attraction happens all the time, and people like the man mentioned fall in love with people regularly? Okay enough questions. Thanks for your contribution to the discussion. By the way I am not suggesting you are wrong.
@Syl – I have never thought of this as a gift. Wow. Just wow. I love the suggestion that this in fact is a good thing – a blessing. To answer your questions, as I said before, lets say that no harm was done in the attraction of these two.
However, I think it could possibly have made them both uncomfortable. In this example,lets say that one told their spouse while the other chose not to. Think about it in those terms. She was the one who decided it would not be good to tell her spouse. He told his spouse. So he has to befriend her spouse knowing something that her spouse does not know and promised that if her spouse gets told it will be her that gets to tell him.
” I would say to simply enjoy knowing that such a thing has graced one’s life and allow that knowledge to enrich one’s heart and all other loving relationships.” That right there is beautiful.
AnonymousHey John I can see that with the word “boundaries” you have taken something that i didn’t intend in what I was writing due to an association you have with your exepreinces. I’m new here and learning that somw words I would usually used in regular conversations have advesions for some here and what vocabulary to use that is useful. Instead of beindaries would “safe healthy relating” or somethign like that work for you?
So yeah if we put it another way then the guy was addicted to romantic love and had not learnt healthy relating with a woman as a friend. So for both her and him they needed to be wise in how much time they spent together and how they spent it so that it woudn’t be a distraction from the freedom that either had to love thier spouce fully. Just as an alcoholic needed to be wise about his proximity to a bar in management of his addiction.
Yes what you brought up is an important point – relating to the other or where the is difference as I woudl put it. Another horrible word is “tolerate” in this respect which sounds perfectly OK but in reality often means in pratice a puttign up with “the other” rathet than an embracing of them in a spirit of unity and diversity.You mentions unfomfortable. Yes it is notman and healthy to be uncomfortable as part of the adventure of exploring new horizons and them opening up. It is quite common for people to say nowadays “I’m not altogether comfortable with that” when they are unwilling to embrace what we are advocating here. It is as if it gives them some rights when they say it. It actually is nothign more than a whine, it is not deserving of any respect or right. I has no place to be honoured as a phrase. You are not exactly uncomfortable with that? Well so fucking what! Is what is going on in my head when I hear that expressed as a whine. (as opposed to a genuine hurt).
it is very difficult to have a generic difiention of “boundaries”. But in this case you talk of I would decribe what I would want to say in that regard as what would have been healthy for both the guy and the women in the situation you talk of. Should they never do something that was uncomfortable for them – no. Should they indulge there emtions and suffer as a result in not having the freedom to love fully their spouces – no. Should he learn to be a freind to a woman before having a frinedship wiht her – probably. But then if he is never areounf women then how is he going to learn to be frined with them? Well maybe an older women who he is not going to be attracted to in a romantic way would be the way to go. Keeping it safe for him and for women.Can I now use the word boundary to describe that or would that be somethign you would still have an issue with and would need to cal it safe healthy relating or something?
Does that make sense?
Anonymous“Well maybe an older women who he is not going to be attracted to in a romantic way would be the way to go. Keeping it safe for him and for women.Can I now use the word boundary to describe that or would that be somethign you would still have an issue with and would need to cal it safe healthy relating or something?”
Hey be kind to older women.
Just kidding – I hear what you are saying, except relating to attractive people is something he needs to learn and really it shouldn’t matter one way or the other. No, stop using that confounded word… lol This is why I don’t like the word. A person imposing “boundaries” on a relationship is working with a basic assumption that somehow they know better about relationships than the other person, but that is not necessarily true. In the real-world, people operate much more respectfully towards each other. They work things out together and agree on terms in a relationship. Even saying “Safe, healthy, appropriate” also is making an assumption that somehow your or my view of safe or healthy is the right one. We use these words and the church uses the words to approach relationships cleanly and in some sort of orderly fashion that makes sense to them and us. Except that again, the rest of the world does not operate like this. Relationships are not clean or orderly. They are messy and unpredictable and hard. They require things like mutual respect and sacrifice and taking chances. You are going to get dirty. To try and use some model of appropriate behavior or expectations to evaluate a relationship to me is a little like trying to classify annomolies into orderly categories. Each one is different by the very definition of annomoly. Relationships are a little like that IMO. See what I mean? I am not trying to be petty over words by the way. So many good thoughts here. I’m struggling with some related things, and this is giving me food for thought. Maybe I’ll get up the nerve to ask more relating to me personally, but for now thank you all for speaking.
AnonymousOh fuck it – whatever word I use, it seems to me that you are going to have some kind of allergic reaction to and I didn’t come here to be walking on eggshells with people. LOL I’m kidding, kind of.
Seems to me that in essence we are not disagreeing but that you take issue with some of the terms I am using. So I’m gonna leave it there for now.
So yeah whatever – point being that the guy you are talking of has an issue with an addiction to the feelings he gets in the company of women that are romantically attractive to him. Bottom line is that it’s his issue, his choices, his responsibility and freedom fro what he does. Relating to older women might be a stepping stone – that’s all I am suggesting. And you rightly say that raltionships aren’t always easy.
Our talk reminds me of a CS Leiws quote:
“To love at all is to be vulnerable. Love anything and your heart will be wrung and possibly broken. If you want to make sure of keeping it intact you must give it to no one, not even an animal. Wrap it carefully round with hobbies and little luxuries; avoid all entanglements. Lock it up safe in the casket or coffin of your selfishness. But in that casket, safe, dark, motionless, airless, it will change. It will not be broken; it will become unbreakable, impenetrable, irredeemable. To love is to be vulnerable.” -
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