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Gary 1 year, 7 months ago.
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Alrighty – deep breath. Here goes. I think I can take this to TLSerers as I know you a little bit now. I hope I can express myself adequately here, I’ll do my best. I’m looking for any advice or insight you can offer. We’ve had the discussions here on gender and sexuality etc, and I’ve always made a mental note, “oh, I must do more reading on LBTQI theory” but it hasn’t been a priority. I’ve done light ‘pop’ reading, nothing heavy. And then this afternoon I receive an email from a close friend in her mid-forties stating that she is in a relationship with another woman who has loved her from afar for a long time. She did say “I hope you’re sitting down”.
By way of background, about a month ago said friend stated that a friend of hers had been crying and upset and when she had asked why, was then told that she had been in love with her for a long period of time, and couldn’t contain it any longer. My response (which I’m cringing about now) was to laugh as it seemed so odd, as my friend had always been into men from what I could judge. I then gave the advice (dumb dumb dumb, never give advice) that she might want to get off the committee that they were on together. I just assumed that she wouldn’t want to make it any worse for the other woman by being around, and that limiting contact was the sane thing to do, seeing as I thought my friend was only into men.
As I hadn’t seen my friend in a month after that conversation (big clue there), I suggested coffee catch up on the weekend. She had mentioned that she had been on a long trip with the friend, and they were still doing committee work together, etc. So I think I knew then. And today I get the email stating that they’re in a relationship. The kids are ok with it, just not liking having to share affection now.
So…I feel a bit like I’ve been punched. Probably not to that extent, but it is a major challenge to my beliefs in this area. Not before time I imagine. I’m just feeling non comprendez at the moment. You see I’ve never really understood the ‘gender fluidity’ thing. My gay friends have been gay from birth. “Mum knew I was gay – even when I was a young child” are the kind of comments I’m used to. I understand that, I get it. But I don’t get this situation. I think it’s one thing to talk about it in rational, theoretical terms, it’s another when it’s a dear friend who you’ve known for a long time. And until now I’ve always thought, when hearing about “x in marriage with y breaking up after long-term marriage and heading off with x” – as someone who has always been gay but didn’t know it , was in denial or couldn’t be what they were meant to be. And bisexuality – I’ve never been able to understand that orientation either. So there you go, I’m the biggest ignoramus out. I’m just straight-thinking, celibate for now old Helene from a fundy background who doesn’t comprehend or consider the possibilities out there.
So anyhow, I’ve always wanted to have this conversation with TLSerers but didn’t know how to approach the subject. And now it’s one I can’t shy away from.
Am I making any sense? To me, this is different from the young adult coming out to their family and friends, so I really don’t know how to process it. And it makes me realise how very little I know about gender and sexuality. I don’t even know how to respond adequately to my friend. Naturally I wish her every happiness and all that. But as she lost her father in very traumatic circumstances recently, followed by someone professing undying love and wanting a committed relationship, I wonder if it was too easy to pass up, that’s all. And I would feel the same if she was seeing a man, not a woman.
Yeah, so that’s my challenge – it’s one thing to make supportive statements from afar about this issue. But when it’s in your own circle it personalises it and challenges you how to relate in a whole ‘nother way. Or does it, or should it?
Anyhow, do I need to read more Foucault or something? I really don’t mind what anyone says. I’m ready to delve right in. Over to you for your thoughts (exhales breath)……..
I understand your confusion. I went through a challenging period of examining my own sexuality and came out of it much better for it. Whilst I myself am thoroughly hetero, I do have several gay friends plus a few who have more fluid sexuality. So I believe I have a good idea what you’re going through!
I suspect a lot of the problem we have in today’s society is that we like to put labels of people and put them in a matching box. I object to that because I tend to fit in multiple boxes simultaneously. But rather than getting upset about, I just try to defy characterisation when such pigeon-holing would bother me. That’s one reason why I will wear a Necomimi to places like writers’ festivals.
Fun and silliness aside, though, I heard recently that it is only in the past few decades that people have started being identified by their sexual orientation. As well as that, for some reason I don’t really understand, many people in today’s society think that sexual preferences are binary: you’re hetereo or your homo. Bzzt. Wrong! It is a spectrum and sexual preferences are ranges on that, not simple extremes.Not surprisingly, it turns out that looking critically at yourself and trying to analyze what turns you and what doesn’t is something that a lot of gay people do. This is why so many of them are comfortable with their sexuality and celebrate it so openly. Unfortunately, our modern secular society has worked hard at teaching people to be afraid of sex, and this means afraid of sexual analysis and that means afraid of even the slightest thing connected to homosexuality. And that’s a real shame. (And it’s a shame that there are a number of gay people who enjoy actively flaunting their sexuality in front of people – often hetero – who clearly haven’t become comfortable with their own.)
Now where was I going with this?
Oh yeah: I had some help. I have been seeing a professional counsellor from when my marriage broke-down. He was very good not only because he let me process things only as fast as I was able to but also because it became a safe place for me to talk about anything and to be truly myself. It was okay for all barriers to be down, but it was also okay if I needed to keep some of them up, too.
I discovered a few years ago that a friend of mine I’ve known on and off for years is gay. I should have spotted it so much sooner, but I suspect he didn’t really know. And I also know I didn’t know how to tell due to being raised in the church. A close friend (at the time) spotted it far quicker that I did because she used to work with people who were gay. He came out on Facebook, of all places, by changing his status from Single to In A Relationship with another man. And his new partner was divorced, with a son from a marriage.
Seeing this happen set the stage for me to be able to develop a wonderful friendship with another man who is most definitely gay and to be able to to do with utter honesty and complete lack of judgement.
Hope this helps! Ask questions if it does not…
I totally get you staticsan, I think you’re right on, especially with the labelling. There’s just something I’m finding hard to express, it’s on the far far edges of my brain but I can’t seem pull it in ! I just wonder, with reference to the gender/sexuality scale, and where folks sit on it, if we all sit on different parts of the scale, but then we also keep moving around all over the scale, what is the point of even using the term ‘scale’ – isn’t that another form of labelling also? ie – what is the point of a scale?
I went to LBQTI ally training last year. A former Mormon shared his story of his bisexuality and how supportive his wife is. I couldn’t wrap my head around it.
But here’s one closer to home. What if David announced on this site that he was now attracted to a man, and they were in a relationship? (I’ll leave Lisa out of it). What does that mean on the ‘scale’ side of things? I don’t know, maybe I should just give up trying to comprehend this. But does it mean ‘whatever turns you on – go for it?’ You know – come what may? And then the origins of what turns us on – now I’m sure that’s a whole school of philosophy all on its own.
And I still don’t know if I’m making sense….even to me sorry !
I happen to prefer to use “spectrum”, but the point is that it is not binary, either/or, one-or-the-other-and-never-the-twain-shall-meet. Once people accept this, then we can look at adding further dimensions. Of which there could easily be quite a lot.
Wade.
@helene : the fact that you are willing to consider and be open-minded about it shows a great heart. i’m confident if you remain that way all will be well.
Helene, I had all kinds of thoughts and ideas about homosexuality when I was evangelical and fundamentalist in my way of being. And then some things shifted. I think I’ve written this other places in forums but I went thru Spiritual Director’s Institute with the Sister’s of Mercy in Burlingame, Ca. In one of our classes they had a panel of spiritual directors who told their stories. There were 8 stories.
One has stuck with me:
A gay psychotherapist and professor who does spiritual direction with gay, meth-addicted, latino, HIV positive men in the City. (San Francisco.) I could hardly wrap my head around this. To me, a gay man (person) being used by god to help others? WHAT?! I had never considered such a thing. And yet, there before me was this kind person who ministered to this very marginalized community in the City. Wow.
I shifted.
Then my Mentor in the SDI (spiritual director’s institute) was a gay professor from Graduate Theological Union in Berkeley. He was an excellent mentor. Shift.
One of my professors in SDI was a lesbian woman who is by far one of the very best spiritual directors I know. Shift.
But the kicker was when my sister came out as gay. Many of my church friends were so sad for me. We were all so sad for my sister. And then something shifted. I decided to simply love my sister and let her work out her own life. Her life was/is not my responsibility. She is married to my lovely sister-in-law now. I gained a sister!
Cheers to you! It has been quite a journey for me to leave my evangelical-fundy roots.
I’m so very glad you ventured out and brought this up.
Thanks staticsan, David & starfielder – appreciated.
Just to be clear though, my issue isn’t with same sex, it’s with trying to understand the ‘spectrum’ as staticsan so neatly put it. Or should I say, the ‘moving feast’ of the spectrum. I’ve always though of sexuality in fixed terms (you are straight, or you aren’t straight), I’m trying to comprehend (?biologically, ?psychologically) how someone in mid-life can move into another dimension on the spectrum so to speak. And possibly keep moving. I’m still not sure if I’m making sense, but I’m not sure how I relate to someone who is not all straight, or not all gay. It’s the Anne Heche type of thing. See, I’m still confused. Don’t worry, I’ll get there (as encouraged by David).
Oh, and just in case I appear totally unenlightened, I have seen “Carrington” – associated with the Bloomsbury group. Now to try and understand it beyond ‘they were artistic’…
I’m still not sure if I’m making sense, but I’m not sure how I relate to someone who is not all straight, or not all gay.
Well, an example of someone who is not all straight or not all gay would be someone who identifies as bisexual or some other variant (like pansexual). People who are bi often end up appearing to “switch teams” later in life if they never acknowledged it in themselves earlier. They were always bi, but only expressing one side of it. You can be bi and completely blend in with straight or gay communities, depending on your personal romantic patterns (the spectrum, which is different for everyone). And this is frustrating to both the gay and straight communities. Bisexuals are often ignored or demonized.
What’s more, often people don’t know what “bisexuality” even IS, so they label themselves gay or straight, depending on who they’re with or how they feel about sex with people of certain genders at that point in their lives. It leads to a kind of invisibility of bi people.
I identify as bi, and for me, it’s not about sex so much as it is about interest in a person. If the person is someone I find attractive intellectually, then (for me personally) physical attraction follows right after. Of course, there are lots of 100% straight and gay people who have the same way of operating, but I think that the emphasis on “attraction to person” over “attraction to gender” is the most important part of conversations I’ve had with people who were bi, or pan.
Just as an explanation, Bisexual was considered by some to not be inclusive enough, because it implied attraction to “either/or men or women” without including people who didn’t fall neatly into those two groups for whatever reason. (sometimes social, sometimes physical, etc..)
As a result, the term pansexual was born, which covers “many” (pan) instead of “two” (bi).
So in my case, I guess technically, I’m pan, but to make things easier and non-confusing, I still just stick to bi.
Helene, I think I understood you when you said “gender fluidity thing” and then when you said “trying to understand the spectrum.” For me, it doesn’t much matter where someone is on the ‘spectrum.’ Whether someone is straight, gay, bi, pan, transgender, whatever. I guess I tried to “fall neatly” into “evangelical fundamentalist.” Ha joke was on me. I’m neither.
@starfielder – lol
@ren – thanks, that explanation is a huge help. I do think, like starfielder said, it doesn’t much matter ‘whether someone is straight, gay, bi, pan, transgender, whatever’ and I agree. However then I think, ‘but if that person is my partner then I want the stability of relating to them without seeing their constant change on the spectrum?’ I think that’s what makes the difference for me – if the person is my partner. A gay friend (it sounds so tokenistic saying that I realise) once shared with me when he was very drunk that his partner was bisexual. I was surprised as I hadn’t a clue, and I remember thinking I wouldn’t be okay with that, I wouldn’t want to share my partner in that way. Ah, I must be the jealous, possessive lover type I think. So yes, understanding bisexuality, pansexuality is my challenge for 2013. It has always been a conundrum for me. Thanks for sharing and helping me along the path…
Anonymous@Helene it seems almost as if the word bi-sexual is synonymous with the word unfaithful here. Someone who identifies as bi is no more a cheater than a heterosexual partner. My friend is a college student who is in charge of a LGBTQ advocacy group at a catholic university, and he claims that even to use these sorts of labels is discriminatory when everyone lives somewhere on that spectrum at any given moment. When you think of it, by the very nature that we are all somewhere on the same spectrum means of course that we are all the same.
At some point in my education on these matters, I remember embracing the idea that “since LGBTQ folks were born that way and had no choice”, then I could love and accept them and make room for them in my theology and practice as a believer. But then someone said, “what about if they just want to be gay. What about folks who claim to have made a choice to love same-sex individuals?” Lol. That threw me for a loop. I was stuck. I did not want to then say ” oh well they are choosing a sinful lifestyle, so they are out of gods will.” No, rather than trying to pinch and squeeze my theology and my ability to accept people no matter what together and make them work together, I had to merely toss out my theology. The two cannot reside in the same mind.
We are tasked to love others no matter what. The very least aspect of love one can possess is to respect others. How can we respect others when the ideologies we embrace make a mockery of their chosen path? That is when things changed for me, and I really began to understand what Jesus meant by “love one another as I have loved you. “
However then I think, ‘but if that person is my partner then I want the stability of relating to them without seeing their constant change on the spectrum?’
Yes, and that is why people tend not to like bis/pans… However, they fail to realize that, if the person you’re talking about it monogamous anyway, then it won’t much matter. If they are with you, then they are with you. (If they are not monogamous then you just ran into a minority of any group of people.. I know very very very few polyamourous people because it’s a dificult thing to juggle. Cheaters, on the other hand are everywhere.)
If they ever leave you, then the next person they are with could be anyone, but it shouldn’t make you or anyone else feel bad if they chose someone of another gender… falling in love isn’t quite that reactionary… lol
Likewise the person they were with before you shouldn’t and doesn’t dictate the reasons why they are with you.
Hi Helene (and everyone else),
I have to agree with everyone here who believes that sexuality is on a spectrum. Ten years ago, when I had just left church (the first time), my best friend (who was married to a man) informed me that she and another girl “hooked up” when they were out drinking, and she thought I should know since we were all going out together. I was not raised fundy by my parents (who aren’t open minded), but I was sucked into fundy churches as a teenager and in early 20’s. You can imagine my shock and how uncomfortable I must of felt. But what was I to do? Stop being friends with my best friend or accept her? I chose to accept her. She later left her husband for a different woman, and has actually dated both in the last 10 years. We had a girls weekend last year and we talked about everything, and even laughed at how taken aback I was. But she explained the same as Ren, she fell in love with “the person”.
Fast forward to a year ago, and my best friend since kindergarten and her husband let it slip that they like to swing or bring other people into their sex life. Hmmm… I guess I have just come to the conclusion that my friends/family members/kids can work out their own sexuality. It is my job to love them and support them and pick up the pieces if or when they are heartbroken by a man or woman.
People who are raised in fundamental Christianity have their sexuality repressed regardless of their orientation, but it is so unacceptable to fall anywhere on the spectrum that is outside of hetero. It is an abomination in their eyes. So we ALL were taught to feel shame about sexuality. I don’t know if your friend was raised in the church or not, but it would make perfect sense as to why it would happen now, and not sooner.
I was driving down the road the other day and I realized that 50% of my very close friends are bisexual. Is it possible that it is more prevalent than people admit to themselves? I think so. I am positive there are many people who are attracted to or turned by threesomes or fantasies involving same sex situations. Does that make them bi? I don’t know. I do know that it takes great bravery to embrace that part of yourself and accept yourself as you are even if it is looks different than what everyone around you expects.
Thank you so much for this feedback, I think my mind is being blown wide open. It’s a good thing.
John – I think you’re right, I think I was always mistrustful of bisexuality, seeing it as getting whatever you can get, whenever you can get it…
Ren – falling in love isn’t quite that reactionary – yeah, pondering that one. Cheaters are everywhere – YES !
Pam – my friend wasn’t raised in church but did become full-on Pentecostal in her late teens before ditching that and becoming agnostic/atheistic. Thinking back, I reckon the signs were probably all there, I just didn’t see them (cue all her DVD collection with ‘Carrington’ type material). See that’s me, straight- thinking Helene, not considering all the possibilities out there. I just don’t notice things sometimes until someone says something.
And you’ve raised an interesting thought when you say, ‘People who are raised in fundamental Christianity have their sexuality repressed regardless of their orientation’. It’s more than just sexuality, it’s your whole identity. And then how to unravel that – into what? See I think I’m a pretty faithful person and that I’m hard-wired like that. I was in a pretty rotten relationship once and didn’t look sideways. But maybe that thinking is due to my fundy background and ‘hanging in there’ and ‘turning the other cheek’. That’s why John stating, ‘we are tasked to love others no matter what’ is a bit of a trigger for me, because in my past it has meant not adopting suitable boundaries and letting my guard down with those who need to be shown the door, the inability to say no, not being upfront about what I do or don’t want. Basically the total negation of myself.
This is a really complicated one for me, but thanks for being patient and working it through with me while I do my brain dumps. I’m appreciative.
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