This topic contains 22 replies, has 14 voices, and was last updated by 
Ren 1 year, 7 months ago.
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For me the idea of seeing people as good or bad seems to be an arbitrary rating scale. I like a more functional world view. I look more at what people do rather than trying to figure out if they are good or not. Looking at what people do as being harmful or being helpful feels more useful. I don’t believe in the concept of sin. I can say that anything that was done to me that I didn’t like came from the other’s fear, ignorance, or insanity. Some of the most harmful things done to me were done by nice people. They were acting out of ignorance and a certain level of fear.
I have since learned to set boundaries with nice people. I am often perceived as being mean when I do this. I have decided that I rather be perceived as mean than to go through the pain of doing things I don’t want to do or endorse things that I know are harmful, but these nice people don’t understand as harmful. It’s rather surreal that when I do set boundaries, even when I use my inside voice, I get accused of yelling by someone yelling at me. Perceptions are really interesting things.
@MxMagpie — everything you just said. All of it. The part about the militaristic leadership–I’ve never heard it put so clearly. That’s exactly what it’s like, though. And you’re absolutely right about the bullying, too. Last year in my town, some kids verbally harassed a bus monitor (not the bus driver but the adult who sits on the bus to keep the kids in line). Someone recorded it and it went viral on YouTube. The kids were disciplined and now go to a special program. At the church we attended, they had a “special” message for the teens at youth church. It was all about how we need to “forgive” the bullies and how they need to know they are welcome at the church any time. I put up a fight. I called the youth pastor on it and said that while I appreciate the compassion (these kids were getting death threats), I thought it was actually a better opportunity to talk to the kids about why it’s not ok to treat people like that. He said that he was more concerned with “grace” and how angry people were–as though no one had the right to be upset about what these kids did. Perfect opportunity for justice–blown. And the response of the adults in the church was sickening. One woman said she thought it was “terrible” that these kids would be known for “an act they committed when they were 13.” That’s the same attitude that has people all sympathetic toward the Ohio rapists–their athletic careers are “ruined” now. Church is full of talk about “grace” and “sin,” but thin on how not to be an asshole.
Wow @mxMagpie … I love what you wrote.
@Richard … I’ve learned mostly since leaving the church how to set boundaries. wise.
@Amy … this whole victimization of the victim and salvation of the perpetrators is a very complex one. Often with church I wonder if it’s an attempt to raise its appeal… a kind of evangelism/ church growth tool? I know of churches that won’t deal with perpetrators in their midst because of the ramifications it would have on their numbers… both with people and with money.
@Ang I was that nice person.
Never thought I’d feel bad saying that but I kinda do now. haha! How does one actually enter into that ‘nice’ cycle? Is it a character flaw? A lack of self worth? How does one ‘recover’ from being the nice person?@Amy , Yep, that’s the exact kind of attitude I’ve experienced and been against. As adminDavid said, “the victimization of the victim and salvation of the perpetrators”. Great summisation, and generally seriously creepy. Within the church generally, the perpetrator who needs forgiveness will not ask to be forgiven (especially if it is not clear to them they did something wrong, see the stubenville rapists) but the victim will not ask for help, as they are never offered it. They don’t need to be saved from the sin of others, instead we should pity the sinner.
I have no idea where the hell this warped thinking came from, but it is endemic within society too, that rape case is not singular, there’s been a similar attack on a 13 year old girl by football players at another school which has received the same treatment… an off the cuff theory- maybe it’s because generally as people we want those in power to like us? Like the bully, the rapist had power and used it to f*** up the life of a young person irreparably, the victim was shown to have no power so there can be nothing gained by advocating her… and at the end of the day it is the psychopaths who end up with the most power, the worst kind of people in a lot of ways… And all evil dictators had thousands of people on their side… Really callous-sounding speculations here,. I’m not a sociologist so feel free to dismiss all of that if it makes no sense, also tell me so I can dismiss it too ehehh.
@admin David, yep, that’s been my experience. It’s under the guise of “if we don’t let them in, how will they find Christ?” but it’s about numbers. Ironically, I think churches would swell to overflowing if they were in the business of actually helping the people who have been victimized and protecting them from those who do harm. I find it strange that a church with a large number of children would not have any hesitation to allow a registered pedophile through the doors or offer welcome in the teen class to known adolescent bullies, but would ask a woman victimized by a stalker to “leave for a time” so they could “sort it out.” (Yes, all true stories.)
(TW next part for discussion of rape)
@MxMagpie Yeah, that case in Connecticut that’s being prosecuted as statutory rape–the new defense for the rapists is to say that statutory rape isn’t “real” rape, more like not using the crosswalk to cross the street. I’m not even making that one up; that was a literal thing someone said. And really, I could see that in the case of a 16-year-old in a relationship with an 18-year-old, because it’s still statutory rape under the law even if both people were enthusiastically consenting to the sex. But 18-year-olds and a 13-year-old? Not the same. Raping a child is not okay.
@Sara, I was that nice person too. I never even thought about there being a difference in nice and kind. But as I read the article, I could see the difference and, regrettable, I was the nice person. And people who knew the difference sure knew how to use it against me, or at least to their advantage. I wanted to kick myself. For me, I think it was a learned trait from my Mother. But for my Mother, there were not people waiting around to take advantage of her. Or maybe it was just me, who knows? I know I was a ‘people pleaser’ and I’m trying to recover from that. And doesn’t a people pleaser and a nice person kind of go together? So many things to learn and change!!!
I know for me, pleasing people was something I was taught to do.. it had no rewards in my personal life but that’s why it was so messed up.
When I was a child, I wanted to do things that were pleasing out of wanting to show love… those things were never good enough. I was always being reprimanded but never shown what to do. Be punished but never really corrected. I spent a lot o time very confused and hurt, but my desire for approval was still that of a child… pleasing my family only met with more disapproval… so I would turn that toward others, trying to find anyway I could to be pleasing to gain that approval I couldn’t find. In the end I was hurt for that, too..
I know that this is my own anger about my life situation talking, but I feel that pushing people of any age into that cycle is a form of emotional abuse. If someone is genuinely trying to show care for you, and you push them away, yet encourage them to keep trying (knowing you will never accept them) that’s just torture.
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