This topic contains 22 replies, has 14 voices, and was last updated by 
Ren 1 year, 7 months ago.
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This is the child in me talking.
As a kid, I soaked up the “God is love” message… everything made sense under that banner…
and then I learned that God doesn’t love everyone. It was just a ploy to get people baptised… well.. he DID.. but he loved them enough to act like he didn’t love them, and that was supposed to make people want to return to get the “good” love instead of the “tough” love. (Sounds like an abuser…)
People didn’t want to help certain people in their communities. They withheld love from each other and their kids and even themselves…
They had so much bad to say about people all while putting a disclaimer on the end that they were “just telling the truth”…
This wasn’t love. None of it was.
And the child in me wants to know:
What is so bad about being good? Everyone knows what love looks like. they just choose not to do it, or call it something it’s not.
What is so bad about being good? Really? I don’t get it! You can’t tell anyone to care about anyone unless you do it, too! And….. I don’t see that! Suggest it and people get angry and try to explain it away.
SERIOUSLY… what is so bad about being good?
Do people just not like it? I take it this is what Jesus spoke about when he said that people will hate you… Dare to be kind and you’re weak… dare to care and you’re a bleeding heart…
But push people around and you’re a hero! Everywhere! Even in the church! (Where God is love and Love is all of the kind things we’ve ever dreamed of)
I don’t get it.
Someone answer this question. I know the answer, but I want to hear what you guys have to say about it.
That is a very thought provoking question, Ren..thank you for sharing your thoughts and asking.
What IS so bad about being good? I wish I knew.
I have recently adopted a rather non-theist point of view, so my answer(s) (well, theories) will reflect that. Being raised, first as a regular non-religious kid and then from age 5 on up in churches ranging from baptist, reformed/calvinistic, non-denominational and more, I observed a lot of different ideas of what “good” is. To my family, good was doing “what God said” to do. Beginning with the 10 commandments and a whole slough of other phrases cut out of the Bible as my parents saw fit to attribute those words to God. But, there were other families in the churches we attended, and they all seemed to have different ideas of what “God said” we should do..so their definition of “good” was still often obviously different..even as they all believed that “good” equalled “doing what God says”. A few really ugly church splits happened, over arguments about that very thing.
Today, apart from any religious beliefs at this time, my definition of “good” is still developing. I feel strongly that life is made up of choices, good and bad. Good choices will generate positive things, for more individuals than just the one who is choosing. Bad choices will also affect more than just the one who chose. Sometimes, two or more (even large groups) people are put in a position to choose together..and there can be even more widespread consequences, good or bad. I feel like there are at least 2 big problems that people have with being/doing “good”…
1. It requires them to think outside of their own space/favorite people.
2. It will not always benefit them immediately, or in any tangible form.
Those are my thoughts on it, as of now…
I am really interested to hear what others have to say about this, and, I want to know what your answer is, Ren!
That’s an interesting question. Am I understanding right that you mean like how churches teach that “being good” isn’t how you get saved? Because I think that’s kind of a weird, warped belief. It’s supposed to eliminate “legalism,” but it does just the opposite. The way I heard it taught was, “You don’t have to be good to be saved, but once you’re saved, you had better be good.” But then their definition of good was all about being nice (rather than kind) and modest and not doing “naughty” things and making sure I spent my money correctly (as in, gave my 10%). None of that ever really sounded “good” to me–just rules-bound. I guess I want to know what’s wrong with being good, too. And maybe how to define “good.”
Well, I’m not just talking about churches, Amy, but also just people in general…
In church and in life, we teach our kids all about why being good IS good… how nice it is… how it makes people happy to do good… and how doing good things can make you happy, too (basically that being happy you helped someone is a natural thing. Children are general pretty happy when they know they helped out.)
For public school, for instance:
Saving the ozone layer and planting trees
apologizing
raising your hand
cooperating and following rules
playing group games
not fightingFor church it could be things like:
food drives
visiting the sick
saying please and thank you
turning the other cheek
learning about love (patient, kind, etc, etc…)
telling the truthIn scouts it could be even MORE things, like
Helping old people across the street
picking up your trash
being kind to animals
being responsible for your campsiteand on TV with kid shows, it could be more stuff like:
try to make friends instead of enemies
be friendly
accept the kids around you because they’re all unique
Having fun with others is goodetc, etc.
Well, for some reason, they start getting another message. We teach the other messages to them, too. Who not to like, how bad you are, how bad THEY are… etc, etc.
By the time everyone grows up, whether you’re in a church or completely non spiritual, the way people prefer to handle things is by coercion and force. No more”good”… no more getting along. It shows up in our politics, on our jobs, in our families… And when people get angry at you for stopping to give that homeless person money or a sandwich… or even suggesting that God loves gay people, too… it’s like that they’re really saying is (and sometimes say out loud, both in church and on the street:)
“All of that “goodness and kindness stuff” is BS and not realistic. You need to be “tough” on people to get anything done”
And going back to church specifically, to me, this is totally anti christian. Jesus taught about turning the other cheek; giving your coat, too when told to hand over your shirt, etc… the fruits of the spirit are not anywhere in a church I’ve visited in my lifetime. I’m just upset. And I’m also discouraged that churches do not see this nor encourage a return to simple kindness. Church isn’t about getting things done! It’s about loving.
People both in church and outside of it see kindness as weakness. They even argue that God isn’t “kind”. He is “just”. Meaning, that he punishes and has the right to.
Well, then I guess God has nothing to do with the fruits of the spirit then *snark*
As far as why I think people choose not to be “good”… I think they don’t like the idea of being used or hurt. They want to be top dog for something, even if it’s a simple interaction. But the fact of the matter is that to be kind, you have to give up on that desire… and I think that many churches, and many people in general would prefer to be dominant than kind. And that’s a shame, because Christ called his followers to be servants. You’d think Christians would be the first to understand this…
But they don’t even though it’s right in front of their faces every week.
Part of me wants to just say, “Give up on world peace. Give up on equality. Give up on all of it. If you wanted it bad enough, we’d have been there by now. You want all of these things that require kindness and empathy… but you aren’t willing to give it. And we will continue on just like this until you are.”
I realise that I am in a minority on TLS – a committed believer who has never been an evangelical Christian! This need to be good – as referred to above – is little more than ‘morality’ that is common to almost all religions. The emphasis seems to be on the need to be good in order to get that ‘get out of hell free card’ with very little emphasis on the importance of the love of God.
But then many evangelicals see Jesus and the intermediary between ourselves and that grandfather in the sky who is always watching us and judging us. That’s not the God I know.
Having said that I really do understand the question. Over 50 years ago I was a Scout Master. We enjoyed sharing the experiences we had had with the boys and encouraging them to share with others. Leaders in those days were never paid – and we took some of our holidays so that we could take the boys camping. It must have been about 25 years ago that another leader friend was asked, “How much do you get paid for leading Scouts?” That was ashock to think that people would even ask such a question. How times have changed in such a short period! Now it seems, very few people will do anything without being able to claim expenses.
It seems that love is growing cold! Maybe granddad has just become very cynical. I’d be interested to hear what others think.
Anonymous@Ren sorry about this but I just have to say it “Preach it girl!’
Seriously, as soon as the church became the arbiter of orthodoxy, we all suffered the consequences. When it went from just being a good neighbor to, making sure your neighbor is being good, we all went wrong. Yeah, sometime after the gospels and before Paul that happened IMO… hey @old-pete … i’m not sure if you’re in the minority or not. there are plenty of “lurkers” on TLS too bashful to share who I know are mainliners, believers, etc… I really do appreciate your voice here and always love what you have to say. in fact… i think you and i should do a hangout for everyone here at TLS one day. what do you think?
What John said.
When it comes right down to it, it is more important to most Christians to be right, to have the correct theology and response to sin. Better to point out sin than appear to condone it by simply loving.
@old-pete…I totally agree with David…please, please, please continue to share your voice. I am one of those he mentioned who is often insecure to share on the board because I feel in the minority.
I am in the middle of some serious questioning, but have not abandoned many closely held beliefs. That may come but for now, I am still thinking through things. I totally love the freedom I see here and that people can safely and honestly share difficult or controversial views, sometimes for the first time. But I think the greater the divergence of opinions, the more healthy the level of discussion and the greater the potential that this space will be a catalyst for growth.
For myself, I am a serious verbal processor and really need to go back and forth about issues I am wrangling with. Unfortunately, I am finding this difficult because I feel like my sincere clarifying questions/thoughts would be perceived as challenges to the conclusions others have already reached. I am also hesitant to share for fear I will be judged as being judgmental!! Does that make sense?? No one has done anything or given me any reason to believe that is true….just my own stuff, I guess.
I so appreciate what David is trying to do here, and his vision for a place where all can feel comfortable expressing themselves…that includes all of us!!
Well it has been reported that Jesus said he came not to bring peace, but a sword, he would cause people (family members) to be against one another. Christians can justify non-physical killing of family in the name of Jesus. You can kill them with ‘kindness’ and sleep peacefully in your beds at night. They say you cannot be saved by good works but if you are saved you will do good works. One of the good works (according to Paul) may be rejecting, spurning, shunning, ‘handing over to satan’ a father, mother etc. for the greater good and the glory of God. The scripture context seems to be over a moral issue but is stretched to include false teaching. In my case I was out of step with the inner circle of the church and could not be convinced that the earth was only six thousand years old. Though it did not come up at the time we left, perhaps I was on the outs because I had been divorced and remarried about 23 years earlier. Some fundies would consider me as having 2 wives and not acceptable in a leading position. I am glad I am out of there but it is heart breaking to lose a big part of my family. Sorry this is a bit off topic but good works can be a matter of perspective.
When it went from just being a good neighbor to, making sure your neighbor is being good, we all went wrong.
THIS. John said it perfectly. This is exactly how I have always felt in most churches–like I’m under a microscope and other people are watching to make sure I don’t screw up. They’re also eying me to make sure that if I do screw up, I don’t take anyone else down with me. I have never been in any church where I didn’t have some variation on the feeling that if they really knew me, they would not like me at all because I don’t meet the proper standards for “good Christian woman.”
I suppose for me, the issue isn’t just about being good. It’s about what we mean when we say “being good.” Because I usually mean trying to see things through other people’s eyes and trying to make a positive difference in the world. But a lot of people mean a list of all the things one shouldn’t do. They equate “nice” with “good,” and while I think one can be both nice and good, niceness isn’t required for goodness–but goodness is required for niceness.
AnonymousI teach my grandkids to be kind, not unkind……I don’t define their behavior as being good or bad but how did this behavior make someone feel? I don’t say you are good or you are bad because of excactly what all these comments say. The definition of good or bad changes with who you ask. But kind or unkind remains the same no matter who you ask. Nice or un-nice is not the same as kind and unkind. Good, bad, nice or not nice all are flesh and touch the flesh, kind and unkind are heart and heart touches heart. IMO.
Kathi, Your comment about nice and kind reminded me about an article that made an impact on me and I thought I would share. I think nice and kind and good and bad and all those words get mixed up and we get confused. I think being kind is good and being nice puts you in line to be a people pleasing doormat. At least that is how it worked out for me in the past.
The Difference Between Being Nice and Being Kind
Marcia Sirota
PsychiatristYou’ve heard the phrase, “So-and-so is a really nice person,” and probably thought nothing of it. In my work, though, I think a lot about what it means to be “reallynice” as I see a major distinction between being nice and being genuinely kind.
The way I understand it, kindness emerges from someone who’s confident, compassionate and comfortable with themselves. A kind person is loving and giving out of the goodness of their heart.
At the root of extreme niceness, however, are feelings of inadequacy and the need to get approval and validation from others. Overly-nice people try to please so that they can feel good about themselves.
Genuinely kind people are giving because it’s in their nature to care, and since they have no ulterior motives, they aren’t concerned with whether or not other people like them.Kind people can be assertive and set good limits. Nice people, on the other hand, bend over backward to be obliging. They deal with potential conflicts by placating the other person because they can’t bear to have anyone upset with them.
Kind people have good self-esteem and because they love themselves as much as they care about others, they expect to be treated with respect. Nice people are desperate for approval, so they’re often mistreated or taken advantage of.
Nice people tend to do too much for those who don’t deserve it and are easy prey for users. They get into co-dependent relationships in which they care-take others in the hopes of eventually being cared for themselves.
This co-dependent interaction, however, is a lose-lose for everyone involved. The nice person fails to get the love and approval they seek, and the person on the receiving end never feels like they’re getting enough care. Instead of being grateful, they become resentful toward the pleaser.
Kind people take responsibility for their own self-care. They’re generous, even altruistic, but don’t get caught up in a user-pleaser type of relationship.
The nice person is careful not to offend anyone and wouldn’t dream of expressing a “negative” emotion. They focus on being good to others, to the detriment of their own needs. In fact, they’re afraid to ask for what they want for fear of creating conflict.
Nice people stuff down their feelings, not wanting to be a bother to anyone, but the problem with this is that emotions can’t be kept down indefinitely. Feelings and needs are meant to be expressed and when they’re repressed, they find another outlet.
Being nice, then, has unforeseen consequences: it’s painful to seek affirmation but receive contempt. Always holding back needs, feelings and opinions adds to their frustration.
Ultimately, the frustration grows into anger, but showing this anger is unacceptable to someone so invested in always being pleasant. They’re compelled to suppress any “bad” feelings.
As the nice person continues to please everyone and the anger simmers underneath the surface, the pressure builds up. At some point emotions begin to leak, in the form of snarky comments, whining, needling, sarcasm, passive-aggressive behaviour or even outbursts of rage.
When a nice person leaks resentment it’s usually met with surprise or with more anger, which reinforces their belief that anger should never be expressed.
A vicious circle is created in which the nice person pleases others, becomes resentful, represses and then leaks their anger and then represses their feelings some more. As a result, I believe they’ll often get caught up in addictive behaviours which are meant to compensate for their mounting frustration.
I have found that nice people will often turn to starchy, fatty or sugary “comfort foods” to help them to stuff down their anger and soothe their hurt feelings. They’ll sometimes abuse alcohol or turn to tranquillizers to anaesthetize their pain. Some will go on spending sprees, trying to buy themselves happiness.
The nice person is overly-invested in the emotional pay-off they’re hoping to achieve by pleasing and taking care of others. They’re also unwilling to face how much hurt or anger they’re carrying. They’re resistant to changing their behaviour, despite the consequences of their compensatory addictions.
Kind people are happy people to begin with, and add to their happiness through acts of generosity and altruism. Nice people are needy people who inadvertently create more and more unhappiness for themselves.
The nice person has to understand that their self-worth can never be improved by being a pleaser. They must learn how to validate themselves independently of others, and let go of the co-dependent relationships which foster mutual animosity.
When the overly-nice person can let go of the urge to please, they’ll be able to identify their real needs and feelings and begin to take proper care of themselves. They can find happiness in pursuing meaningful activities and relationships instead of giving too much, becoming resentful and developing nasty addictions along the way.I’ve experienced the same things and I’ve been thinking into it recently, I recommend the book “The Misunderstood God” which you should really give a read as it addresses all sorts of things like this, including the abuser-type God.
I have some speculation on this topic though, okay, you know how “church” on the whole doesn’t like women too much? I mean, stay with me here, at the least most will not allow them to “preach”. (or indeed speak about God/ the Bible in a group containing a man, no even an exaggeration in my experience) There’s this whole thing about Men leading, and by leading, I mean kind of… militaristically. The kind of leading that is a peg above everyone else, with the authority to silence people and effectively tell them what to do with their lives and be the voice of God. Now, I’ve known men purposefully sacrifice or hide “feminine” (so-called, I don’t believe that rubbish) attributes. Such as sensitivity, the ability to communicate and listen, for the sake of keeping the appearance of a “strong leader”. One of the best pastors I know is great with people, passionate and driven enough to be a genuinely good leader, but no church wants him, we wonder why. So I think that relates to the kindness=weakness mentality, and it works out on a larger scale with the hierarchy I think.
In my church experience “good” has been defined by “imitating us” or “doing what God (WE) say/s.”.. Which is depressing… but then if you talk about human rights, world hunger, being a pacifist, fighting for LGBT or women’s rights or basically being against anything awful in the world, you’re called a “wishy-washy liberal” because apparently being “good” by their definition makes them above all that somehow…
@Amy – I’ve heard the EXACT same thing, though more specifically “Being good doesn’t save you in itself, but now you’re saved, if you’re not being good… then are you really saved?” At a church I went to for a while we would literally get it every. single. week.
@Ren – Yes! The list you gave is a better example of what I was trying to explain above. The general perception of good behaviour in as you say school, or kids TV doesn’t go down well in churches. I mean what about bullying? I’ve never heard a church teach kids not to bully or encourage kids who are being bullied to talk about it, it’s like they invent a while new moral system which is specifically bound to things directly relevant to “the church”. And that quote is so depressingly true, you’ve hit the nail right on the head here with everything. Man, you should produce a flyer so I can leave them around the churches I know
Also, isn’t honestly a virtue? Because that’s certainly not encouraged in church… Social interactions may as well be scripted, it’s as if people have a few of anyone seeing who they really are ( because it’s SIINNNFUULLLL!!!!11 D:)… (cynical mode in full flow here eheh, sorry.)@Old-Pete – I agree with you. I might be the result of the economy and the “times” we’re living in, that people have closed off for risk of being manipulated financially or otherwise, I think someone else said a similar thing, but yeah, it’s like people can’t show love just for the honesty and sake of it, I sincerely hope this changes soon.
@SanG – “Better to point out sin than appear to condone it by simply loving.” Yes, I’ve seen that kind of attitude so often. Fear of condoning sin is the root of a lot of things like this I think, and it’s ultimately pointless isn’t it?
@Hugh – Jesus also said immediately after John 3:16, one of the most famous bible passages ever “…for I did not come into the world to judge it, but to save it.” Shows that the bible is… well erratic at best. A complete message of peace can be drawn from it just as much as a full message of hate and division. Also I’m so sorry for your experience :/ It seems this perception of what’s “good” and what isn’t more often than not works out as discrimination.
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Anonymouslove all these comments, great insight into differences between nice and kind etc. I read the Missunderstood God also and darin helped to clarify those points to me. Great posts peeps, helping me put some meat on me bare bones of what it means to be free…..rock on!
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