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Anonymous(Before I say anything, I want to say I’m appreciative that a place like this exists. Trying to open up about this kind of stuff elsewhere is hell)
So I read the thread about masturbation and I glanced through a few others, but I’m a little surprised this hasn’t been asked yet: is there a clearly defined stance on what marriage is in the Bible? The reason I ask is because I grew up Mormon, so the whole “no sex before marriage” idea was stressed heavily. Making out is still frowned upon, although none of the kids I grew up with ever cared about that (the stuff that goes on during church trips and activities blows my mind, only because you’d think…well…maybe you wouldn’t, haha). But anyways. I grew up with the stigma that until you have a wedding, you are not married, therefore sex is a sin. After leaving Mormonism, this has been the norm(onism), as well.Here’s the problem, though. As someone who IS trying to quit masturbation (I understand there are health benefits, but I just have never felt right about it), I didn’t feel wrong when I spent a few weeks with my girlfriend and made love to her. For the first time in my life, I actually felt like sex was amounting to something and there was no shame involved….. until I started worrying about the people in her church community and my family. Granted, her church community is incredible and are very grace mannered, but still. That’s when the fear sets in: when I think about others. And considering the fact I’m going to be working towards (possibly) being an associate pastor there (I know some of you are dying on the inside now, lol), the last thing I want to do is make it seem like…well…you know…reprobate or something.
With all of that being said, I want to stress I’m not trying to be a Christian who is attempting to “get away with sin”. It’s a matter of looking at ancient cultures and seeing that there WERE weddings and such, but I won’t lie: looking to the Bible for a standard in how to live seems to be a bad choice at times (polygamy, slavery, etc etc etc). It just…didn’t grieve my spirit in all honesty, and I don’t think it should be a “dirty” thing. As soon as I move out there and start working, I plan on proposing and working towards getting married. She’s my best friend, and I cannot imagine living my life next to anyone else. I just am someone who doesn’t want to do something because it’s convenient; I want to find the truth (if possible) and stick with that.
I apologize if this thread is scatter-brained. I just realized it’s four in the morning. I’ve been browsing these forums for an hour now. I need to get some sleep. Goodnight, everyone.
PS: Any suggestions to read Mark Driscoll’s marriage book will be immediately ignored.
I probably better not chime in on this one since I don’t look to the Bible as a standard of how to live anymore. I do believe there are some wise things in it that can be helpful to remember. I wanted you to know that I read your post, even if I don’t really know that my perspective would be helpful.
Really, you don’t want to read Mark’s book??? *dripping with sarcasm* ;P
AnonymousWell…this might actually be one topic that I can speak to both as a Christian and a (former) nurse/health educator. I hope that’s ok.
First, the fact that you didn’t just say, “I had sex” but instead chose the words “made love” is pretty telling. I’m a writer, and I think words are important. Those are beautiful, holy words that you chose–a reflection of not only the physical act but the emotional place you were in. Keep that in mind.
Second, what “the Bible says” about it isn’t clear. Women, historically, have been more or less property. Virginity was essentially only important for them, and as such, the Bible has very little to say about whether men should be virgins at marriage (but it seems unlikely that it would have been important). Since we live in a time when a woman at least should have more worth than cattle, then the state of her virginity doesn’t matter any more than a man’s.
Third, from a health education standpoint, the push for abstinence has a whole host of issues–not the least of which is the failure to understand a ton of stuff about human sexuality. If you are ok with very frank discussions on the subject, go check out Laci Green’s YouTube channel. Very eye-opening. She has a video about virginity that was very good. (Warning: she’s not a Christian, and she doesn’t mince words.)
Fourth, I have no plans to teach my own kids (one of whom is nearing puberty) that they have to refrain from all sexual activity until marriage. I’ve seen the waiting become a problem in and of itself: marriage at too young an age, lack of understanding of our bodies or how they work, repressed desire leading to fear of any and all sexual feelings. This is not at all healthy. So speaking as a parent here, I hope that when my kids are ready and with someone they love, that they will make the kinds of choices you seem to be making.
Finally, the mom/health educator in me says, good for you that you are making mature decisions! Just make sure you are being safe.
(And as for the masturbation thing, it’s really up to you if you don’t feel comfortable with it. But don’t dismiss it totally–it’s actually a good way to learn what you like. Rather than limiting it to a “get off quick” thing, experiment with some different techniques. Then keep open communication with your girlfriend, sharing with her what will make it good for you. Encourage her to do the same–and try to find out yourself what she might like. Both emotionally and physiologically, sex can be more challenging for women.)
Seconding what Amy said.
And no… marriage in the bible happened in MANY different ways…. Many of which we would not approve of today– and by some standards could seem pretty informal. (Approach the father one day whether you knew any of them at all before that day, offer some animals and goods, walk off with a wife and a dowry seemed like the best case scenario. )
Marriage ceremonies, vows, rings, licences, and even definitions as we know them now are not laid out in the bible and are man made traditions, no matter what part of the world they hail from. (This is my perspective…)
The only part that matters to me personally is the commitment.
I’d just say to keep your private life with your GF very private when it comes to your plans in her church. If that information gets out it could really harm your chances, but I know you know that.
Good luck to you and your GF! ^_^
Oh come now, don’t you know Driscoll has all the insider knowledge on faith and sex?! LOL
Seriously though, I agree with Amy (high five fellow nurse).
I learned – and I mean I went to sex therapy to learn this – that there is nothing wrong with our natural sexual desires. There’s is also nothing wrong with someone making the choice to wait until they’re married to be sexually active. As owners of our bodies, what we choose to do with them is between us and our partner(s), regardless of what religion and society tells us. No 2 relationships are alike and where yours takes you should never be dictated by anyone else. Love is this amazingly fluid thing that doesn’t usually listen to outsiders anyway. However, if you find that your faith starts to conflict with your feelings about sex, stop to examine that and talk about it with your girlfriend, especially if it changes the dynamics of you relationship.
As for weddings, Christians most certainly don’t invent them. Heck most wedding traditions aren’t even about romance but practicality Do you know why the groom stands on the right and why he needs a best man? LOL
hey dlmarshall… i simply can’t add anything to what these amazing women have written in response to your post. you come across as a man of integrity, generosity, intelligence and conscience, and am sure that you will let your love lead you in the right way. she’s a lucky girl. oh… and read MD’s book and do the opposite.
AnonymousThanks for this thread – a lot of what the ladies said is what I have been thinking lately about marriage and sex (also growing up being taught sex was taboo to talk about and sex before marriage was REALLY bad). I appreciate the level of openness and honesty here and the space to ask the questions!
Yes, that’s the reason I joined here! For the fact that I can actually engage in conversation about things conservative people’s eyes would widen (or narrow) at.
The Bible has a message beyond the rules we see others impose. This message can be boiled down to the word “love”.
Here the rule says “Don’t have sex before marriage because sin.” but looking into things in more detail with a less legislative eye reveals that the main message is love. So, do you love the person? Is the attraction based on love? Or are you using them? Are you only attracted to them for their sex? Y’know these sort of moral questions.
If the morality behind it is sound, then I think there’s no harm. If it doesn’t work out, that’s part of life. Live and learn.
But mainly, as everyone has said, the wire fences around sex are because of this massive stigma, and insecurity.
And yes, the bible’s view on marriage is a historical one. It paints a picture of what marriage was a few millennia ago, at no point does it command us to live that way today. Women are not property or objects intended solely for a man’s pleasure and to be a factory for his offspring.
We’ve moved on and thank God we have!
Well if you are really wanting to do an in depth study on Marriage, Sex, and Everything in Between from the bible… You are in for a pretty wild and racy ride…
Firstly it is completely slanted to benefit men… But we know this so I will go on…
Solomon… A godly man… Had sex with his many wives, concubines, and slaves… Never was this frowned upon… It was actually stated to show how BLESSED by god he was…
There is many of these types of situations in the old testament… Many of the men were considered righteous… regardless of their many wives and other sexual partners…
There is a bit of a change in the new testament… Men had fewer wives… some only had one… and those that were going to serve god as a leader were admonished to be a man of only 1 wife… or none… so they could dedicate themselves completely to the ministry and not be sidetracked by a wife or a family… There is historical evidence though that having more than 1 wife was still allowable in the early new testament church…
Judaism did not invent marriage nor did christianity… But both have adopted it… even so much as to say that it is a model of god’s relationship to us… Well guess what… It appears that it is the same way for god as man… 1 groom (god) many wives (us)…
As we see… it appears that ideas have changed over time about marriage and sex… IMHO… this has a lot more to do with man and little to do with god…
Here is a collection of sexual encounters recorded in the bible… http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/sex/long.html
Reading through this is pretty wild… and I think it kinda helps make the point about how much things have changed over time… and also perhaps that much of it was really just mans ideas… and not gods…
IMHO I think for someone who is concerned about doing the “right” thing… they should let their actions be guided by love… If you truly love someone… you would not “use” them for sexual gratification… if you love someone… you wouldn’t force yourself on them… if you love someone you would only want to be with them if the feeling was mutual and the act of intimacy is consensual…
In regards to marriage… I do not feel that I need a piece of paper signed by witnesses to make a commitment to another person… If I am walking in love as a person… and have found another person that I can walk in that love with… That is a commitment we can make to each other… and in the eyes of god…
I think one of our greatest failures in the area of marriage is… when we come to a point that we realize that the relationship we are in is not good for us or right for us… that we stop treating the other person with love… I think that is the sin of divorce… walking in anger and hate towards that person… And much of this anger and pain has been created by the INSTITUTIONALIZATION of marriage… We have tried to take a very personal, deeply emotional, yet also spiritual commitment into a legal contract tied to money and things ( like houses, cars, and vacation homes)… Maybe the fact that we make these ties legal actually takes away from the emotional commitment in some ways…
Lastly… I feel that there is nothing wrong with masturbation… I think it is healthy emotionally and spiritually… I know personally that I have much better control of my own thoughts and actions and feel much more centered when I am not hormonally imbalanced… in other words… I find that if I do not take care of things regularly I can become easily frustrated with the most mundane things… I can have difficulty concentrating… etc… These are natural things that our bodies are built to do…
I guess what I have found… as I have with so many other areas of my life… is that BALANCE and MINDFULNESS is the key…
That’s a few of my cents!!
Peace
David
AnonymousWell most of the bases have been covered already, some superb posts here and I agree with all points made. If you love the person and there was no hesitation or guilt experienced over the two of you having sex, then I think that is God’s way of telling that it is perfectly fine. You shared the love you have for each other via one of, in my opinion, the most spiritually empowering gifts from God and I believe that is a triumph for him! As people have already said, marriage is simply a man-made institution that was adopted by the monotheistic religions, then the Catholic church decided to call it a God-ordained tradition and that’s what it is today. Historically speaking however, marriage was simply adopted as a means of familial organisation and control, there was nothing remotely emotional of sentimental about it, it was used to spread influence between families and factions and continues this way in many cultures to this day. In the grand scheme of things, marriage has only become this sacred devotional ceremony and declaration of love between two (heterosexual…) people very, very recently.
In my opinion, I think marriage distorts the relationship between two people simply because it has become so institutionalized as David said above. People are getting married without really knowing why, especially within the church, and at a dangerously young age. New relationships MUST be intimate with each other, they have to explore each other’s personalities, their likes and dislikes, they should have sex when the time is right, they must grow together. But due to the pressures of the church they cannot do this. I once heard from someone that in the eyes of Christianity, a relationship between two people is a mere friendship until marriage and thus people are getting married without fully understanding and knowing each other, and I think this leads to disastrous marriages! The sort of marriages whereby sex is merely about procreation because to view it as the pleasurable experience that it is between two lovers is considered too heathenised by Christians. All these aspects are incredibly damaging to relationships and to people in general, such is the way of the church!
Basically, don’t let the church dictate how you want to live your life, and do not let it dictate your feelings and actions within your relationship. Follow your instincts because that IS the Holy Spirit guiding you
@TheJadedFool – Greaaattt post! I completely agree about the institutionalized nature of marriage, the idea than an archaic, sexist ceremony plus signatures on paper can enrich a relationship is well, bull.
And if it’s about commitment, well, if you need a legally binding contract to keep a relationship together then it can’t have been amazing in the first place.
And personally, I don’t buy into the sentimental aspects of it.
Okay yesss I have personal beef with marriage and I have reasons, so any married person reading this, I don’t mean to undermine your relationship, please understand this is a general opinion as a result of the strict, christian enforcement of it in my life.
When the idea of marriage turned up in my current relationship, we had serious problems for a while, until we both got tired of it and admitted it was the pressure of the idea of “marriage” looming over us had been sapping the love out of our lives.
We resolved that it would never be relevant to us (even if it was legally possible, but that’s a whole other thing) and to avoid the idea all together, and we are much happier for it.
And @ashdabashley nice to meet you too!
And thanks!
AnonymousSo much of what is forbidden or condemned in the Bible turn out to have some kind of cultural taboo for the children of Abraham. The subjects covered in the Bible are the issues the children of Abraham had to deal with to build a society of warriors to conquer their lands. And they did pretty well.
Will people be able to make this step to love that Jesus was trying to get us to walk? Will mankind turn from violence to walk in peace to our futures? I am seeing a lot of people trying and it gives me a lot more hope, a lot lot more. Hey, I am gonna go hang out with David on Twitter, you guys have been a blast to hang out with. I am having to seriously cut down my time on the computer. Seriously. lol. My house is a disaster!! I am up to over three hours a day at the computer! That does not work in my house!
I have got to spend more time here. This is a tremendous thread full of wise counsel and wonderfully supportive and caring people. So much I would have said has been said…but it has been wonderful to read so many excellent comments.
Ok, thanks everyone for contributing to this post. It’s a great read! Wow you all are amazing and I’m so glad I get to be here with you.
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